Re: [Slim] IETF last call for draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language (Section 5.4)

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Addison,

Den 2017-02-14 kl. 21:39, skrev Phillips, Addison:
I have some allergy to the SHALL language: there is no way to automatically determine conformance. Many language tags represent nonsensical values, due to the nature of language tag composition. Content providers need to use care in selecting the tags that they use and this section is merely pointing out good guidance for tag selection, albeit in a heavy-handed way. BCP47 RFC 5646 Section 4.1 [1] already provides most of this guidance and a reference to that source might be useful here, if only because that document requires it:

<quote>
    Standards, protocols, and applications that reference this document
    normatively but apply different rules to the ones given in this
    section MUST specify how language tag selection varies from the
    guidelines given here.
</quote>

I would suggest reducing the SHALL items to SHOULD.
Accepted.
That also opens up for another use we have discussed before but been advised to not use. That is to indicate use of written language by attaching a script subtag even if the script subtag we use is suppressed by BCP 47. We can dro that need however, with the use of the Zxxx script subtag for non-written, and clearly include that usage in our specification as required from BCP 47.

I'm not sure what #2 really means. Shouldn't text captions be indicated by the written language rather than the spoken language? And I'm not sure what "spoken/written language" means.
#2 was: "

2.    Text captions included in the video stream SHALL be indicated
by a Language-Tag for spoken/written language."

Yes, the intention is to use written language in the video stream. There are technologies for that. Since the language subtags in the IANA registry are combined for spoken languages and written languages, I call them Language-Tags for spoken/written language. It would be misleading to say that we use a Language-Tag for a written language, because the same tag could in another context mean a spoken language. Since we have the script subtag Zxxx for non-written, we do not need to construct an explicit tag for the written language tag, it should be sufficient with our specification of the use in our case.

In my latest recent proposal, I still have a very similar wording. Since you had problems understanding it, there might still be a need to tune it. Can you propose wording?
This is the current proposal:

"   2.    Text captions included in the video stream SHOULD be indicated
  by a humintlang attribute with Language-Tag for spoken/written language.
"

Regards
Gunnar

Regards,

Addison

Addison Phillips
Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
Chair (W3C I18N WG)

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#section-4.1

-----Original Message-----
From: SLIM [mailto:slim-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gunnar Hellström
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:59 AM
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; ietf@xxxxxxxx; slim@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF last call for draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language (Section 5.4)

Den 2017-02-14 kl. 19:05, skrev Randy Presuhn:

Hi -

On 2/14/2017 9:40 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
At 11:01 AM +0100 2/14/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:

  My proposal for a reworded section 5.4 is:

  5.4.  Unusual language indications

  It is possible to specify an unusual indication where the language
specified may look unexpected for the media type.

  For such cases the following guidance SHALL be applied for the
humintlang attributes used in these situations.

  1.    A view of a speaking person in the video stream SHALL, when it
has relevance for speech perception, be indicated by a Language-Tag
for spoken/written language with the "Zxxx" script subtag to
indicate that the contents is not written.

  2.    Text captions included in the video stream SHALL be indicated
by a Language-Tag for spoken/written language.

  3.    Any approximate representation of sign language or
fingerspelling in the text media stream SHALL be indicated by a
Language-Tag for a sign language in text media.

  4.    When sign language related audio from a person using sign
language is of importance for language communication, this SHALL be
indicated by a Language-Tag for a sign language in audio media.
[RG] As I said, I think we should avoid specifying this until we have
deployment experience.
...

 From a process perspective, it's far easier to remove constraints as a
specification advances than it is to add them.
I agree. It is often better to specify normatively as far as you can imagine, so that interoperability and good functionality is achieved.
Stopping halfway and have MAY in the specifications creates uncertainty and less useful specifications.

Furthermore, in this case we succeeded to discuss and sort out the interpretation of the unusual combinations.
I am very glad that we sorted out the difference between 1 and 2, and they are both real-life cases.

3 is not at all common, but I have seen products claiming to work for real-time communication with sign representation in text. So it is good to have it settled.

4. Is a bit more far fetched and may cause some questioning if there are real cases, and where the line should be drawn between indicating a spoken languge in the audio stream and indicating a sign language in the audio stream.
As I wiew it now, this combination will be very rare, but it is anyway good to be specific and normative about its coding.

Gunnar

Randy

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