In my opinion, it does not really matter what kind of collaboration tool is used, as long as there is a clear path that still permit to collaborate, but without using them. As an example, I am currently trying to learn how to program an FPGA. As I have *absolutely* no idea what I am doing, I am using an all graphical design suite, which help me to concentrate on learning the minimum skill set to reach my goals. Currently a lot of what happen underneath is a complete mystery (to paraphrase A.C. Clarke, for a beginner any kind of technology is indistinguishable from magic). But the more I learn things, the more I am looking into replacing them by Vim and a couple of scripts, because this is what makes me more productive in the long term. So all these collaboration tools are great, as long as people who choose to use them as a transition to more productive tools can still do this. That means for example a RESTFul API available before the website, text formats, source code available for modification, etc... To summarize, web based tools are important if we want beginners to join, are certainly useful for casual users, are completely useless for advanced users and will probably be detrimental to the IETF future if they are the only mean to collaborate. On 06/15/2016 10:28 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Michael Richardson > <mcr+ietf@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> Randy Bush <randy@xxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> All the cool kids are using slack, and what matrix.org has pulled off >> >>> is quite impressive. >> >> >> >> which is just an HTML interface to an XMPP server. >> >> > so xmpp done good. and your point was? >> >> The "cool kids" are just using XMPP, they just aren't cool enough to know it. >> I think that slack is a walled-garden, but maybe I'm wrong. > > Well, it federates. And honestly, I was pointing more to what matrix > was pulling off rather than slack. Actual micro-home-servers, for > example, written in more accessible language than erlang. apis in json > rather than xml. security and webrtc integration, so messaging, longer > documents, and voice/video are integrated. > > And so on... > > http://matrix.org/docs/guides/faq.html#what-is-the-difference-between-matrix-and-xmpp > >> Maybe it could be told to send XMPP traffic to jabber.ietf.org. >> So, before someone says we should use "slack", they might want to just >> realize that we already "do" > > Vs with "email" which the ietf is only getting around to sort of > fixing the security of, which, in particular, looks always to be too > hard to be able to run inside the home, starting with the reverse dns > requirement and the basic need for public ipv4 addresses, and ending > with controlling spam (I would like to see "email over some better > transport to natted nodes" happen somehow. https://darkmail.info/ > getting anywhere?) > > Given the state of the law nowadays, I do not think enough protections > in the cloud exist or can ever exist, and efforts to move data back > closer to the actual owner of it, I applaud, in addition to good > crypto of it wherever it may rest or be exchanged. > > Security starts with physical security. > > ... > > Please note that I started this portion of the thread as one example > of how the next generation is or could be interacting, where a major > touchdown point is not a keyboard and screen at a desk, but over a > phone or tablet, where the increase in interactivity makes typing a > seem lame, and the typewriter plain text spec of a RFC, less useful > than html and links to actual, complex code. > > There are other encouraging things out there (like tox) - in addition > to the discouraging issues with xmpp (example: > https://wiki.bitlbee.org/HowtoFacebookMQTT ) > > Isoc uses "fuze", which has a handy ability for participants to record > (and notify others you are recording). Can you do that with webrtc? > > someday, perhaps, we'll be able to ask our personal copy of siri to > search our text and personal audio/video logs to find whenever the > heck we'd discussed some thorny issue or another, and/or be able to > query the sousveillance and surveillance infrastructure for it. > > Or we can just wait for clippy to do all that for us. > > https://twitter.com/dantz/status/742336999084961792 > > -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
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