On 27/03/2016 03:17, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Saturday, March 26, 2016 10:36 +0100 Harald Alvestrand > <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> If the documents clearly define the term "design team" as >> teams that are created by a decision in an IETF process, I >> have very few problem extending "IETF contribution" to >> contributions to the design team. >> >> If (as I've sometimes seen) everyone who meets to hash out an >> idea wants to call themselves + their friends is a "design >> team", then I see a problem with the extension. >> >> The lunchtime "bar BOF" would be a nice test case - arranged >> by WG chairs over the WG (or IETF non-WG) mailing list, it >> would be an IETF activity with IETF contribution; arranged >> between friends on the way out of the preceding WG meeting, it >> would (I think) not be. > > I think this is a good summary of a reasonable way to draw the > line. I agree. In terms of wording in the draft, I'll repeat that referring to RFC 2418 seems appropriate (rather than relying on duplicate definitions of terms). To be exact, perhaps: Such statements include oral statements, as well as written and electronic communications, which are addressed to: o the IETF plenary session, o any IETF working group [BCP25] or portion thereof, o any IETF "birds of a feather" (BOF) session or portion thereof, o any IETF design team [BCP25] or portion thereof, o the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG, ... (I intentionally deleted "-sanctioned". As far as I can see it's redundant and confuses the issue.) Incidentally, does the "the IESG, or any member thereof" cover IETF Directorates, which are established by individual IESG members? Brian > For the second case, I do note that there have been > attempts by non-participants to define the second sort of group > as a design team in order to give them (or the WG Chairs) > leverage over membership and participation. But I'd hope to > keep that separate... and a WG Chair could, subject to appeal, > designate such a group as a design team if it seemed to be > getting out of hand, so maybe there is no problem in practice. > > john > > > >