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Hello all, We got more and more comments on this draft, and were thinking that we could resolve all of them offline, but later see that more IETF people are interested in this draft since Chinese is a quite special one to handle, which is different from Japanese, Korea, other Asian language adapted to English already. Dear Nori Demizu. Thanks a lot for you kind review Reply inline. with ==> -----Original Message-----
Hello, Hui Deng, Zhen Cao, Paul Hoffman,
I read your I-D <draft-deng-chinese-names-03.txt> and found it is a very interesting document. Thank you for providing it!
Let me introduce myself before writing my comments. My name is Noritoshi Demizu (Demizu is my family name). I am 51 years old Japanese male. Though I cannot speak Chinese, I am a big fan of Chinese pops/music (e.g., Faye Wong, Jacky Cheung, Teresa Teng, Michael Wong, etc.). So, I have learned entry level of Chinese. My comments are based on my understanding of Chinese basics plus some borrowed knowledge from Wikipedia pages I read these days. I am sorry if some of my understanding is incorrect.
And, I am one of the authors of RFC3038. I launched an internet drafts archive site at http://www.watersprings.org about 15 years ago and ran it until 2011. Now it is run by Warren Kumari, an active internet researcher/engineer. ==> Great Job, thanks
Below are my comments. Part 1 proposes some minor corrections. Part 2 comments on Pinyin and Part 3 comments on Tones. Then, Part 4 proposes additional modifications.
1. Minor Corrections
1.1. In the 1st paragraph in page 8 (the 4th paragraph in Section 3)
> one character). In this case, Chinese people speaking his name in > informal conversation would normally family name, and just call him > by using his given name, Xiaodong.
At the middle of the sentence above, the auxiliary verb "would" does not have a verb. How about inserting a verb such as "omit"? (i.e., "would normally *omit* family name") ==> Thanks, Randy send me the separate email which also mentioned this, so this is accepted.
1.2. In the 3rd paragraph in page 9 (the 2nd paragraph in Section 7)
> macron (a horizontal bar), rising is with a acute accent, down then
How about changing "a acute accent" to "an acute accent"? (i.e., "a" -> "an") ==> Thanks, corrected
1.3. In Acknowledgements in page 10 (Section 9)
> even published. Some of the people who contributed include: Aaron > Ding Cameron Byrne, Fred Baker, Haibin Song, Ida Leung, Jari Arkko,
At the head of contributors list, I guess a comma (,) is missing between Aaron Ding (the first person) and Cameron Byrne (the second person). ==> Thanks, corrected
2. Pinyin
2.1. "v" as a replacement of "u" with a dieresis
According to the Wikipedia pages below, "v" is often used as a replacement of "u" with a dieresis (also known as an umlaut). Your I-D uses "v" in the same manner (e.g., "nvshi" and "nv3shi4").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)
(My dictionaries at hand say "diaeresis" is a British spelling. And it is spelled as "dieresis" in American spelling.)
Though this usage of "v" seems to be a common practice for Chinese people, it may not be a common knowledge for non-Chinese people. (For example, I did not know of it until I read your I-D.)
How about adding a description saying that "v" is often used as a replacement of "u" with a dieresis because "v" is not used in Pinyin? If you add it, you can use "v" in Figure 2 "Pronouncing Pinyin Finals" and in the words "Nvshi" and "Nv3shi4" in Section 8 without concern. ==> thank you a lot for writing this, Randy in a separate email also discussed, based on the comments, we have updated in ver 4 which not yet submitted as below, hope it works for you v | Like the vowel in French "tu" or German "suess",
| produced by placing the tongue as for the "i" vowel
| while rounding the lips as for the "u" vowel.
| More commonly displayed as "ü" | Since 2012, appears in Chinese passports as "yu" 2.2. A New Reference to Pinyin
How about adding the following URL as a reference to Pinyin?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin
This page elaborates on Pinyin and the pronunciation tables in this page have more detailed explanations. This page would be a great help to deepen reader's understanding of Pinyin.
==> I recalled that we have included this before, There were a discussion that this draft is not the purpose of study Chinese, so we removed it finally. do you still think that is a value to add this as the reference? 3. Tones
3.1. Background: Tone Names
In Section 12 "Informative References", [FourTones] points to the following URL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_tones
According to the page above, tones in Chinese language vary depending on the place and the era. It describes Four Tones in Early Middle Chinese first, then compares them with the tones in modern Chinese dialects. According to the page above, the tone names of Four Tones in Early Middle Chinese are as follows.
- level (or even) - rising - departing (or going) - entering (or checked) [1: List of the traditional Four Tones names]
On the other hand, the following Wikipedia page describes the tones in modern standard Chinese (Standard Mandarin).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Tones
According to the page above, the tones in modern standard Chinese correspond to Four Tones in Early Middle Chinese as follows; i.e., Level (or even) corresponds to two tones (1st tone and 2nd tone). Rising and departing correspond to 3rd tone and 4th tone, respectively. And entering (or checked) disappeared.
1st tone: dark level (dark means yin of yin/yang) 2nd tone: light level (light means yang of yin/yang) 3rd tone: rising 4th tone: departing [2: The modern standard Chinese tones and traditional Four Tones]
The Wikipedia page above also uses following words to describe the modern standard Chinese tones. Apparently, these words are not based on the traditional Four Tones names. (I do not know whether they are common description among Chinese people.)
1st tone: high-level tone 2nd tone: rising tone (or high-rising tone) 3rd tone: low tone (or dipping tone) 4th tone: falling tone (or high-falling tone) 5th tone: neutral tone (= qing1 sheng1 or light tone) [3: The modern standard Chinese tones with simple descriptions]
By the way, your I-D uses tone names as follows.
1st tone: level or even 2nd tone: rising 3rd tone: down-then-up (or departing) 4th tone: falling (or entering) [4: The modern standard Chinese tones and tone names in your I-D]
In this list, the order of tone names are the same with the order of the traditional Four Tones names (except "down-then-up" for 3rd tone and "falling" for 4th tone). But the correspondence between the modern standard Chinese tones and the traditional Four Tones names is not correct (Compare with the list [2: The modern standard Chinese tones and traditional Four Tones]).
From another point of view, "level" for 1st tone, "rising" for 2nd tone, "falling" for 4th tone (and probably "down-then-up" for 3rd tone) might come from the modern practice to distinguish the modern standard Chinese tones.
By considering above, I guess that the traditional Four Tones names and the modern practical tone names are mixed together in your I-D, while they are incompatible (i.e., "level" and "rising" have different meanings).
==> This is very important point, also why I want to discuss it in the IETF mailing list other than offline discussion. the reason we don't use [1,2,3, is because what almost all Chinese elementary student learned is [4, other than [1,2,3. even = "-" = (1), rising = "/" = (2), down-then-up = "\/" = (3), falling = "\" = (4) and we explain it to "four tone" which is mostly similar to we probably need to add tone number to this four tones in the end of section 2.3 ==> this is very straightforward, and easily understand, especially for foreign people to learn it. the purpose of this draft is also not encourage people to learn Chinese academically, but just wanna to help IETF people to speak Chinese name easily in a very short time.
==> do you think that we can skip the left 3 proposals, accept 1 proposal by incorporate into section 2.3 about tone number?
3.2. Proposal 1: Removing the Traditional Four Tones Names
In order to make description on the Chinese tones simple, how about removing the traditional Four Tones names from your I-D? That is, how about removing "even" for 1st tone, "departing" for 3rd tone and "entering" for 4th tone?
In addition, in Section 12 "Informative References", how about removing the following reference to traditional Four Tones?
> [FourTones] > Wikipedia, "Four Tones", August 2013, > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_tones>.
Here are the reasons:
(1) The correspondence between the traditional Four Tones names and the modern standard Chinese tones is a bit complex, as shown in the list [2: The modern standard Chinese tones and traditional Four Tones] above, especially for beginners like me.
(2) The current usage of the traditional Four Tones names in your I-D is not correct as discussed in the previous section in this comment.
(3) Some modern practices to call the modern standard Chinese tones seem to be incompatible with the traditional Four Tones names.
3.3. Proposal 2: Using Tone Numbers
In order to keep away from the ambiguity of tone names, how about calling the modern standard Chinese tones by tone numbers instead of tone names?
Here are the reasons:
(1) The only set of tone names I have found in Wikipedia is based on the traditional Four Tones names, which is shown in the list [2: The modern standard Chinese tones and traditional Four Tones] above. I think it is a bit complex and inappropriate for beginners like me.
(2) My Chinese texts at hand call the four main tones of standard Chinese by tone numbers. They do not use tone names. I think most learners of Chinese language are familiar with tone numbers.
Of course, I think it is important to give a short description for each tone.
3.4. Proposal 3: A New Reference to the Modern Standard Chinese Tone
In Section 12 "Informative References", how about adding a reference to the following URL, which describes the tones of modern standard Chinese?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Tones
This page elaborates on the modern standard Chinese tones. It depicts the contours of the four main tones by diagrams (and by tone letters and tone numerals if readers understand them). It also describes the detailed rules of the modern standard Chinese tones including neutral tone. It would be a great help to deepen reader's understanding of the tones of modern standard Chinese.
4. Additional Modifications
4.1. "Han characters" in Section 2.1
Hanzi is called "Han characters" in section 2.1 and "Chinese characters" in other sections. I think many IETF participants understand what "Han" means, but some might not understand what "Han" means. How about changing "Han characters" in section 2.1 to "Chinese characters (Han characters)"? Or "Chinese characters (Hanzi)" as in Section 2.2?
==> Section 2.2 says "Chinese characters (Hanzi)" already?
4.2. One Syllable for One Chinese Character in Section 2.3
How about adding a description, something like "There are tens of thousands of Chinese characters. Each Chinese character has its own meanings and is pronounced with one syllable." in Section 2.3?
The reason is that I guess readers are expected to have this knowledge (especially, the relationship between a Chinese character, a Chinese word and a syllable; e.g. each Chinese character represents a word, and each Chinese character is pronounced by one syllable with a tone), but non-Chinese people might not know of this.
== > I will check Cao Zhen, come back to you later, thanks for your waiting. 4.3. Unaspirated/Aspirated vs. Voiced/Unvoiced in Section 2.3.1
How about adding a description, something like "English language distinguishes some consonants by whether they are voiced or unvoiced (e.g., between b, d, g and p, t, k), while Chinese language distinguishes them by whether they are unaspirated or aspirated." in Section 2.3.1?
The reason is that some entries in Figure 1 "Pronouncing Pinyin Initials" seem to assume readers have this knowledge, but non-Chinese people might not know of this.
In addition, how about adding a description, something like "For most English speakers, unaspirated and aspirated consonants in Chinese would sound like voiced and unvoiced, respectively." in Section 2.3.1, if this is true? (It is true for Japanese)
== > I think that is not all the same, you can tell from wiki, some of them are not explained by unaspirated or aspirated. 4.4. "Inflection" in Section 2.3
(I am sorry the description below is a bit complex. Fortunately, the resulting proposal is simple.)
Section 2.3 uses the word "inflection" in the explanation of tone. According to the Wikipedia page below, "inflection" is a term in grammar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection
The page above says that "In grammar, inflection or inflexion is the modification of a word to express different grammatical categories such as tense, mood, voice, aspect, person, number, gender and case." (e.g., dog -> dogs, call -> called, write -> wrote -> written)
Hence, some of readers whose mother tongue has inflection could misunderstand the concept of the Chinese tone.
By the way, according to the Wikipedia page below, "tone" is a term in linguistics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_(linguistics)
The page above says that "Tone is the use of pitch in language to distinguish lexical or grammatical meaning." And there are following two types of tone systems.
* Contour tone systems (Chinese uses this) The distinguishing feature of tones is "their shifts in pitch (that is, the pitch is a contour), such as rising, falling, dipping, or level."
* Register tone systems The distinguishing feature of tones is "the relative difference between the pitches, such as high, mid, or low, rather than their shapes."
Hence, it can be said that the Chinese tones are distinguished by "shifts in pitch" or "pitch pattern" within a syllable.
So, how about explaining the Chinese tones by something like "Spoken Chinese also has tones (shifts in pitch) within a syllable. The four main tones of Chinese are first tone (high-level), second tone (rising), third tone (down then up), and fourth tone (falling)." ?
==> This part I also need to discuss with Cao Zhen, this part is written mainly by him. thanks a lot for your waiting. Anyhow, very insight review, we appreciate your comment to better shape the document Best regards, DENG Hui Thank you for reading my comments.
Regards, Nori Demizu |