On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On 4/7/2015 12:10 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>> What is the cost of removing it? >>> ... >>>> There is no cost to turning it off. > ... >>> There is also an indirect cost in the IETF's knowledge of its protocols. >>> As others have noted, we should be eating our own dog food. Knowing >>> how to run each protocol and especially how to run protocols as a >>> mixture, certainly should be an IETF goal. >> >> Known by whom? Glen? Matt? The other AMS folk? >> >> This sounds like motherhood and apple pie -- "We, the IETF, should >> know how to run each protocol and especially how to run protocols as a >> mixture. And we should floss daily and always call our granny on her >> birthday..." > > (The freedom to publicly speak so condescendingly and dismissively of > others' views and suggestions remains a true hallmark of the IETF, as > does the anticipated reaction against my noting the rudeness... Thank > you for that. It's curious that we object more to the noting of > rudeness than to its generation.) > I apologize. I hadn't intended the tone to come out the way it did. I'm often frustrated by how far from operations IETF participants have strayed, and how dismissive of the views of operators much of the IETF has become (which is why I helped man the IETF Helpdesk at NANOG, asked Chris Grundermann to present at IEPG / OpsAWG (http://www.iepg.org/2015-03-22-ietf92/IETF-HelpDesk-Update_IETF92.pdf), the Synergy list ( http://snozzages.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/synergy), etc). My frustration leaked out, but it wasn't (intended to be) directed at you - it was more general, undirected frustration... > > Had you chosen to solicit clarification, I'd have observed that while > AMS does indeed have the primary hands-on, others in the IETF also deal > with such configuration and monitoring experience, starting with the > IAOC and propagating out to others. > > That is, operations problems get reported up the chain, beyond AMS. > > And the more ops wrinkles are shared with the community -- such as is > happening now -- the more the community learns from that experience. > That is the reason I said that Ray should have supplied more information > in the original query. Yup, I fully agree -- we've been having long discussions on whether or not to buy a loaf of bread - with no idea of how much the bread costs. > > And, of course, many of us are /users/ of these mechanism, which imparts > some other experiences. > > >> But, before this thread, how many people here even knew we were >> running proftpd? > > How is that, or the rest of the questions you ask in that paragraph, > relevant? > I guess it's not -- it was more of my frustration leaking out... W > > > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf