Hi. I really appreciate Sam's efforts and those of several others to refine the details of what the Ombudsteam can and cannot do in various situations and how those situations are defined. I also strongly agree with Mike St.Johns's recent posting about professionals rather than, especially, amateurs chosen by a Nomcom and given a bit of training. However, I want to take a step back and make two observations. First, there is a difference between peer to peer harassment and harassment that involves, or may be perceived as involving, abuse of power. I think the draft does quite well about the first -- the confidentiality provisions are right, the focus on remedying problems and preventing recurrences is just about right, etc. Harassment that involves the appearance of abuse of power is more of a problem: We can say that the recall process can be used, but the recall process is unworkable, especially if substantially any discussion about the harassment incident(s) or its investigation are required to be treated as confidential. >From an outside view, use of the model as documented when there is an appearance of abuse of power is likely to be indistinguishable from "cover up" and tuning the boundary between, e.g., "management" and everyone else or even whether petitions are needed if the Ombudsteam initiates the recall doesn't help in that regard. I don't want to be facetious about that, but a reading of the document and recent discussion threads leads me to wonder whether we need separate models for peer to peer harassment and perceived abuse of power (that might involve harassment, but might not be limited to it). Second, I think we need to remember that, if the Ombudsprocess works well, as I think we would like to assume it usually will, it will bring about changes of behavior through education, persuasion, and even if necessary, a threat or two leading to either changed behavior or a resignation. Only if that fails do we get into a situation in which remedies should be considered that are involuntary as far as the Respondent is concerned and that have the effect of isolating the bad acts of a bad actor from the community. Viewed that way, which I think is appropriate, there is a lot less difference between "barring someone from a mailing list (or meeting) in which they have behaved badly and can be expected to continue to do so" and "removing someone from a position that has been part of a harassment event or other bad behavior". If the first two are justified, the third is too and we should not be discussing separate and more time-consuming mechanisms. I think the argument that the third is not appropriate for the Ombudsteam to apply because we have other mechanisms or it doesn't involve as much due (or undue) process as those existing mechanisms then we shouldn't be talking about the Ombudsteam removing someone from a mailing list either because we have procedures for dealing with posting rights, procedures that involve considerably more process (and protections and public scrutiny) than an internal decision by the Ombusteam. best, john