My personal opinion is that while pervasive surveillance is a kind of "attack", the increasingly pervasive active attacks on social and economic targets by (gangs of) criminals, vigilantes as well as governments using the Internet as a carrier of malware and phishing is also. - I'm glad to see a stronger emphasis on security by all IETF participants. - Hardening the entire Internet against surveillance is a good, and likely necessary, first step -- surveillance of target is often a necessary first step before active attacks. So I agree with the questions asked in the hum, although I didn't hum along. But let's not let surveillance be the only important target of our vigilance. Larry -- http://larry.masinter.net