John, > At least for the one of those proposals > I remember best, the IESG simply refused to consider it. One of the benefits of the way the IESG turns over is that tomorrow's IESG is not today's. On the other hand, the IESG serves the community as well as providing a modicum of leadership. If the community is insistent on some point, the IESG had better wake up. In other words, if you can build a rough consensus in the community for some change whether technical or procedural, what the IESG thinks is not significant beyond pointing out flaws and providing polish. I am not convinced by "the IESG refused to consider." Change the IESG to one that will consider, or better yet, bring fully formed consensus for change to the IESG and have it happen. Adrian (optimist today - medication must be working)