Re: making our meetings more worth the time/expense (was: Re: setting a goal for an inclusive IETF)

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I think *side meetings* are killing IETF, I call it *hidden meetings*, there is no input for IETF when we have side meetings. The input to IETF in through meeting sessions and discussion lists. So I agree with Keith that meeting sessions have low discussions, and may discourage remote participants to discuss as well.
 
I think why you feel that side meetings are valuable, is because it has short presenting, each person talks for less than 5 minutes and discussion time is interesting. So you and Keith seem to be having same aim to exclude long presentations of issues. Furthermore, I will add that we need not to only ask questions and discuss with the authors/presenters, we should be discussing to the IETF WG with the meeting. This way the habit will be not boring and ALL will be attracted.
 
AB


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The most valuable part of IETF meeting is and has always been the hall
conversations and side meetings

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@xxxxxxxxx

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Michael Richardson
<mcr+ietf@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Keith Moore <moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>     > But earlier today I realized that the problem isn't just the cost of attending
>     > meetings - it's the value that we get in return for those meetings.   I've been
>     > taking notes about how ineffectively we use our meeting time.   Most of what
>     > I've observed won't surprise anybody, but here's a summary:
>
> Thanks for this.
>
>     > Rooms are set up not to facilitate discussion, but to discourage it.   The
>     > lights are dim, the chairs are facing forward rather than other participants,
>     > the projector screen (not the person facilitating a discussion, even if someone
>     > is trying to facilitate a discussion) is the center of attention.    The chairs
>     > are set so close together and with so few aisles that it's hard for most of the
>     > attendees to get to the mics.   The "microphone discipline" which was intended
>     > to facilitate remote participation ends up making discussion more difficult for
>     > everybody who has paid to be on site.
>
> I think that these physical things are something that we can do some
> experiments about.
>
>     > Well, please excuse my candor, but f*ck habit.   We can't be effective
>     > engineers if we let bad habits continue to dictate how we work.
>
> I agree.
>
>     > For 80% of most WG meetings, the lights should be bright, the participants
>     > should face each other.   If there's a person facilitating the discussion that
>     > person should be the center of attention.    If we're going to use microphones,
>     > the rooms should be set up to allow everyone in the room to have easy access to
>     > them.   We should have several microphones, again facing each other, so that
>     > several people can have a conversation without everyone having to queue up.
>
> Can we please try this in Vancouver?
> This would work especially well for BOFs.
> Maybe we can start there.
> Chairs will need training as *facilitators*
>
>     > And maybe, in addition, we need to provide better places for people to hang out
>     > and work while trying to get an opportunity to interact with specific people.
>     > The terminal rooms are generally placed in out-of-the-way corners, but the most
>     > effective places to interact with people are in the hallways.
>
> I agree.
>
> --
> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
> ]     mcr@xxxxxxxxxxxx  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [
>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, Sandelman Software Works
>
>


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