On 6/19/13 6:35 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> There is a real problem with accountability and transparency in the IETF >> constitution which was designed by a bunch of old boys to maintain >> control in their own hands. Peter is a member of the IETF establishment >> so of course he sees no structural problem. Actually I see lots of structural problems -- I just happen to be of the mindset that working from the bottom up is the only sustainable model for change. > PSA's been an AD, yes, but: > >> What I suggested is that the status quo is going to lead to applications >> area work moving to forums outside the IETF. The Jabber folk have >> already done this with the XMPP foundation. > > He's also one of the Jabber folk, and indeed Executive Director of the XSF. > > So given these two statements are in conflict, there must be a problem > with them. > > I think it's in the implication that the XMPP folk came and looked at > the IETF and decided there was some structural problem. I don't think > that's the case. You'd need to ask someone who was there when it formed, > like Peter, but I suspect it really mutated gradually from an umbrella > organization for open-source software projects, and by the time anyone > realised it was an SDO, then the IETF was already committed to > SIP/SIMPLE (to the point of giving them their own area), and was in > addition happy to cite XEPs and use the technology operationally. Well, the Jabberites were working in their own open-source community in 1999 and were quite clueless about IETF activities until the XMPP WG was formed in 2002 (and, one might argue, even after that). We continued to work on XMPP extensions at the XSF in parallel with working on the core of XMPP at the IETF because I don't think it would have been productive to define hundreds of XMPP extensions in the XMPP WG at the IETF (that might have been perceived as a DoS attack, if you will). But this is really not a diversity issue, so if we're going to continue this thread I suggest that at the least we change the subject line. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/