Tl;dr version: I think that there is value in having IETF legal counsel evaluate us against other SDOs specifically regarding considerations around membership (or lack thereof), voting (or lack thereof), and openness (or lack thereof). That would help us to determine if this is really something we need to pursue/be concerned about, because it would help to determine if IETF is just like the other SDOs who have an antitrust policy, or if they are materially different enough that it's probably not necessary. Responding to a couple of specific points inline below... Wes George > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of > Donald Eastlake > > (c) The IETF does not have any members > > The governance of the I* is complicated but I don't think any court > would have any trouble finding that, for some purposes, the membership > of the IETF is those qualified to serve as voting noncom members. [WEG] Yes, but that is by definition not restricted other than to ensure that those involved have some familiarity with IETF by virtue of having paid registration for multiple meetings. Note the distinction here - while 3777 says "attended" it is not more specific on what can be considered attendance. One could easily register and skip every single meeting if it suited their purposes - we're not checking blue sheets here... Further, eligibility as a voting nomcom member affords no additional influence in the process of defining standards. It only provides influence if one is randomly selected (via a publicly published algorithm) to participate on nomcom, and even then, that is only to install leadership, not to dictate technical policy. Yes, there is a relationship between nominated leaders and technical standards, but that's a stretch IMO. > > > (d) People participate in the IETF as individuals [WEG] this would be tough to defend. We say that, but we still allow people to place a company affiliation on their badge and on any drafts that they write, use company email addresses (including those who forcibly append stupid legal disclaimers at the end of every message :-/ ), and run afoul of company IPR, not to mention the fact that the vast majority of people attending meetings are funded by their company, both in time, travel costs, and registration fees. > >> > > > (f) The IETF does not vote > > Legally, I don't think there is much difference between many IETF > decision procedures and the voice voting commonly used in various > assemblies. [WEG] I disagree. Anyone can participate in the unofficial votes that the IETF holds in WG meetings and on mailing lists. The vote can be skewed by "tourists" in the WG meetings, people who hum particularly loudly, the acoustics of the room, people who join the WG mailing list simply to voice an opinion on a certain draft or issue, etc, etc. And the votes are untallied, non-binding, primarily serving as guidance to WG and IESG leadership. Many other SDOs have very defined requirements around what is considered a member and when you can vote (such as IEEE, which requires a certain amount of documented attendance before one can vote on technical proposals: http://ieee802.org/3/rules/member.html). Votes are also tallied and used as official decisions. This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf