For Minneapolis and Phoenix we do need extra leg as well.... And for us it is really not cheaper.... -----Original Message----- From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ext Loa Andersson Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:28 PM To: ietf@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Requirement to go to meetings Nurit, I'm in the same situation, but part of the argument is right. If we do one North America, one Europe and one Asian meeting per year; places like Minneapolis and Phoenix is cheaper regardless where you come from. That is if you compare with high end cities like SF, NY AND DC. ALso places where you need an extra hop to get there. /Loa On 2011-10-23 09:43, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote: > "Both Minneapolis and Phoenix have huge conference facilities, are easy > to go to, and can get cheap off-season discount" > > For whom? > > For me it is much cheaper and easier to go to Europe....:-( > > *From:*ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] *On Behalf > Of *ext Ping Pan > *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 3:13 PM > *To:* Eric Burger > *Cc:* IETF list discussion > *Subject:* Re: Requirement to go to meetings > > In the past three IETF meetings, I have traveled to Beijing, Prague and > Quebec City to meet most who live within a few hours (air, car, walking > etc.) from me. The next two will be in Taipei (in Winter) and Paris (in > Spring). This is more like a vacation package than a get-together for > engineers to solve problems face-to-face. > > Several of us have chatted about this last week. How about this as a > recommendation? > > We have two meetings in fixed locations each year: Minneapolis in > winter, and Phoenix in summer. The other one can be somewhere in Europe > or Asia. > > Both Minneapolis and Phoenix have huge conference facilities, are easy > to go to, and can get cheap off-season discount. Most of all, it > encourages the participants who want to do work going there. > > Make sense? > > Ping > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Eric Burger <eburger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > <mailto:eburger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: > > It gets worse. To attend every IETF meeting costs about $10,000 per > year. If we say one has to go to the face-to-face meetings, we limit the > IETF to participants from corporations or entities that will sponsor the > individual (pay to play?), IETF participants that have independent > funds, or people that can generate significantly more than $10,000 per > year from their IETF activities. $10,000 per year is not within a > typical individual's budget. This is more especially so if the > individual comes from a region of the world where the per-capita GDP is > below $10,000 per year. > > Where does the $10,000 figure come from? It is based on the following > assumptions: > One trip is far, so $2,000 for airfare > One trip is near, so $400 for airfare > One trip is in between, so $1,200 for airfare > > Hotel: 6 nights (Sunday - Friday) at $200 average per night (including tax). > I know, Taipei is much more than that and Vancouver, including tax, will > be exactly that. However, the numbers are nice and round at $200. I > often cannot afford to stay at the conference hotel; use your own > numbers for your own circumstances. > > Meals & Misc Expenses: $50/day for 6 days > > So, the calculation is: > 3x ($650 registration fee + $1,200 average airfare + $1,200 average > hotel cost + $300 meals/other) = $10,050 > > > It is critically important to note the cost is dominated by travel and > hotel. The only parameter in IETF's control is the registration fee. > Even if ISOC, sponsors, or someone else endowed the IETF so we could > drop the registration fee to zero, the annual cost for travel is over > $8,000, which is still rather expensive. > > I do not believe we consciously want to prohibit individuals from > participating in the IETF. I do not believe we consciously want to > prohibit individuals from outside North America, Europe, and select > (wealthy) Asian countries. However, this is one logical result of > mandating people go to the face-to-face to get work done. > > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 6:26 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote: > > > > > > > On 10/21/2011 7:58 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > >> It's increasingly the case that if you > >> want to do work at the IETF, you need to go to meetings. I'd have > >> considerable reservations about asking for the kind of money you're > >> suggesting. > > > > > > Melinda, > > > > I've changed the subject line because the point you raise is > orthogonal to the main thread, but since you raise it, it's worth > exploring a bit (since I happen to agree with your observation.) > > > > The dynamics that make this true seem to have to do with changes in > our community rather than in the nature of the technical work or the > online tools. > > > > So the question is how to move the center of gravity back to mailing > lists? > > > > d/ > > > > -- > > > > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > bbiw.net <http://bbiw.net> > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf mailing list > > Ietf@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Ietf@xxxxxxxx> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Ietf@xxxxxxxx> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- Loa Andersson email: loa.andersson@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sr Strategy and Standards Manager loa@xxxxx Ericsson Inc phone: +46 10 717 52 13 +46 767 72 92 13 _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf