I have been looking at various revisions of this draft since -00. I'm glad
Lars did the first version during IETF 77, and I'm glad that Lars and
Gonzalo kept working on it.
I think it's important guidance for the community. I think it's on the right
track. I think it could reasonably be published in its current form.
I have some suggestions.
Frivolous: I TOTALLY get the "don't call it a Bar BOF" thing. I've also seen
the confusion that results from any sentence that includes the words "Bar
BOF", and it might even be worth pointing out that even IESG members and IAB
members drop the "Bar" in conversations from time to time, especially during
IETF week, resulting in even more confusion. "Side Meeting" could work, but
it covers a lot more than the kind of "pre-charter planning meetings" you
guys are talking about for most of the document, and you have access to a
community of thousands of creative people - could you think of a better
name? If the search space you're dealing with requires references to
alcohol, just ask Hadriel Kaplan for a suggestion. He came up with MARTINI
... :D
More seriously: We're now more than two years into the implementation of the
RAI DISPATCH process, and RAI DISPATCH has a lot to do with "bringing new
proposals" into RAI. It seems odd that there's no guidance specific to RAI
DISPATCH, especially because the current revision also talks about working
group "ad hoc" meetings, which RAI DISPATCH often uses. It might be helpful
to mention something about the RAI DISPATCH process - either in this
document, or in another that deals specifically with working group "ad hoc"
meetings. And, actually, the discussion of working group "ad hoc" meetings
seems to have parachuted into the last paragraph of Section 2, with little
in the title or abstract that would lead anyone to suspect that it might be
hiding there ... so maybe moving it to its own, very small, document would
be helpful.
Minor suggestions:
In Section 2, there's a discussion of "tourists". It might be helpful to
distinguish between the times when you WANT "tourists" - when you're asking
the entire IETF community for input - and the times when you DON'T - when
you're trying to wordsmith a charter, etc. The text describes the second
case nicely; I'm just suggesting that you you include a sentence on the
first case, and say "you need to hear from the entire community at the right
time, but your side meeting probably isn't the right time".
Also in Section 2, where you give the "don't count bodies" warning, you
might also add that people come to meetings about proposals for new work
just to make sure that the proposal isn't going off-track in ways they care
about - and if it's not, that's fine, they aren't interested in DOING the
work, so they disappear. So the area directors know not to count them as
"interested", too.
Somewhere in Section 2, it would be worth noting that collecting large
groups of people in "side meetings" tends to result in larger proposed
working group charters, which makes it harder to get chartered. The IESG has
not had a problem with charters that were too limited in scope coming out of
side meetings, at least not since I joined the IAB ...
Section 3 contains this text:
Many routinely say "yes" to every
incoming request as long as there are meeting rooms available (and
there are typically lots of meeting rooms available).
I'm betting that the parenthetical should be "available, outside of normal
working group meeting slots".
Section 3 contains a sad tail of woe about an area director being trapped in
a hotel for a few days during IETF 77, but I'm thinking area directors are
going to be trapped in hotels for a few days during IETF weeks, whether
there are side meetings scheduled during meals or not.
There might be a few points conflated here - (1) my understanding is that
most area directors are trying to dodge "side meetings", because the very
presence of an area director signals "gee, Gonzalo came, he must be
interested, and if he's interested, he'll approve us as a working group
soon!" - if the area directors ARE dodging side meetings, you might say
that, so everyone has realistic expectations; (2) "if you schedule a side
meeting during a meal break, everyone there will be missing a meal unless
you go to a restaurant like we told you", and (3) "if you schedule a side
meeting that looks like a BOF during a meal break, you won't fit into most
restaurants, so have a small side meeting and go to a restaurant like we
told you" :-)
In Section 4, when you're describing the problems of holding side meetings
that are indistinguishable from IETF working group meetings, you might
include the point that we've seen situations where people think the work has
already been chartered, even making press announcements about that. No one
makes the same mistake when you meet in a restaurant!
Also in Section 4, where you say
Finally, some organizers may find
the process to apply for an official BOF too complex, and so decide
to simply mimic one.
I don't think complexity has anything to do with it - some people request a
BOF, get turned down, request an IETF working group meeting-style "side
meeting", and have the same meeting they had been planning with the same
agenda they had put toether in the same room where the BOF would have been
held. I think it's worth saying that ...
In Section 6 on IPR, it might be useful to point out that these side
meetings are building support for your proposal, and the right time to tell
your potential supporters about IPR is NOT after they support you and the
working group has been chartered ... it's great to observe the rules, but
it's even better if you know that not observing the rules *fails*.
Also in Section 6, this text doesn't parse for me:
Informally, the above makes it appropriate, in order to provide a
pointer to the relevant policies, to announce the "Note Well" text
[NOTEWELL] in all such meetings.
and I think the problem is that I don't understand what "Informally" means
in this context.
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