Eric, Speaking not on behalf of the IAOC, but as an individual attendee who has also attended a couple of Internet-related meetings in China: You raise a number of good questions. Unfortunately, since the wording was dictated by a branch of the Chinese government I see little hope in it either being revised or further clarified. I view the entire thing as a warning sign that certain activities are not allowed [just like we have signs that say "violators may be prosecuted"]. The broadness of these statements I am sure is deliberate. In a more recent message you said: " In particular, we can refuse to take those terms now and instead attempt to negotiate for terms that we find more acceptable." I very much doubt that we have any way to negotiate with the Chinese government on this. But back to the specifics: I don't think the rules were written with a group like the IETF in mind. I also don't think, in fact I am pretty certain, that the hotel staff would be the ones who decide to shut down the meeting or take other action. I am sure what would happen, in practice, is that the *local host* would intervene, warn the offender and that would probably be the end of it. This assumes there was ever anything for the hotel or host to complain about in the first place which is something I also doubt, ---- unless someone in our community decides that they want to push the boundaries and prove a point. That is frankly my ONLY worry about this matter. The Chinese government is, by now, well aware of what a typical IETF meeting looks like and would not have granted permission for the meeting to take place if they expected us to stage a political rally, but just in case we should be so inclined, there is a set of rules spelled out (albeit broadly) in the text we are discussing. I assure you that there is no intention to have WG materials pre-screened or anything of the sort, heck they're never ready on time anyway ;-) And I honestly do not think that anyone should plan on being more careful than usual about what they say in general WG discussions or plenaries. The meeting should be like any other IETF meeting in terms of content. So, we can do what Steve Crocker suggests, go to China with a positive attitude or stay home and wonder what might have happened. Ole On Sat, 19 Sep 2009, Eric Rescorla wrote: > It's not entirely clear to me what these conditions mean, so > maybe it's worth trying to parse them a bit. ISTM that there are > a bunch of potential questions about their interpretation: > > 1. What materials are covered under this? This could include any > of [in roughly descending order of "officialness"]: > (a) Materials printed in the program [Do we have a program?] > (b) Materials presented by IETF management (IAB, IESG, etc.) > (c) Speech by IETF management > (d) Materials presented by WG participants > (e) Speech by WG participants > > 2. What exactly is covered by the restriction on "any defamation > against the Government of the People's Republic of China, or show > any disrespect to the Chinese culture, or violates any laws of the > People's Republic of China or feature any topics regarding human > rights or religion"? > > 3. What recourse, if any, do we have if the hotel staff judge that > the lines above have been crossed? > > 4. What, if anything, is the IETF on the hook for if the conference > is cancelled? > [snip] _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf