Michael StJohns wrote: > > Given that one of the reasons for moving meetings out of the US was an > inability to get timely visas for physical entry I find it kind of > ironic that we're contemplating having a meeting in a place where > there's a complete inability to get a visa for your mind..... > > Yup - hyperbole - but I will note the set of permissible actions at > this venue appears to be much more constrained than any other venue > we've visited. I will also note that many if not most of the topics > considered within the security area could be in violation of PRC law. > We've been focusing on the free speech issues and really should be > considering whether or not we have more fundamental issues. For those > who have said "the government is unlikely to enforce..." various items, > I would suggest that its not smart to knowingly violate any laws in any > country. I too was struck by the irony of trading one set of visa issues for another ... While I agree one should not intentionally violate any laws of the visited country, my concern with this condition is that I might lose my ability to acquire a visa in the future due to the stupid actions of someone else. I don't recall the questions on the PRC visa application, but I know that a frequent question on visa app forms is something to the effect of "have you ever been denied access, or asked to leave the country". I am willing to deal with the consequences of my own actions, but I am not sure I want to risk my future livelihood over someone else's desire for 15 minutes of fame. I have been to Beijing/Shanghai/Guangzhou/HK many times over the last 7 years, and I can't see jeopardizing the ability to conduct future business there given the strongly held viewpoints of many IETF attendees, so it is not clear to me that I would attend under that condition. I would be happy to participate in normal IETF business there, as there are contributors that deserve the same locality considerations that the rest of the group is given. If there were some way to make it clear that any issues were personal actions, which probably means not scheduling a plenary to invite a group discussion which may go south, I would be less concerned about attending. Beyond that, I do agree with Mike that we need to take a close look at the WGs which have problematic agendas in such an environment. It is not about how we interpret the content of the discussions, it is how the local officials would interpret it. Unless someone fairly high up in the national government is willing to bless the topics in advance, and strong-arm any local enforcement that is looking to make a name for themselves, I don't think it makes sense to even bother scheduling them to meet. Tony > > Mike > > > At 11:42 AM 9/18/2009, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > >Greetings; > > > >We have received numerous suggestions and requests for an IETF meeting > >in China and the IAOC has been working on a potential China meeting > for > >several years. We are now close to making a decision on a potential > >upcoming meeting in China. However, the following issue has arisen > >and we would appreciate your feedback. > > > >The Chinese government has imposed a rule on all conferences held > >since 2008 regarding political speech. A fundamental law in China > >requires that one not criticize the government. Practically, this > >has reference to public political statements or protest marches, which > >are not the IETF's custom. The government, which is a party to the > >issue, > >requires that people who attend conferences in China (the IETF being > >but one example) not engage in political speech during their tour > >in China. We consider this to be acceptable, on the basis that the > >IETF intends to abide by the laws of whatever nations it visits and > >we don't believe that this impacts our ability to do technical work. > > > >The rule is implemented in the Hotel agreement and reads (note that > >the "Client" would be the Host, and the "Group" would be the IETF) : > > > > "Should the contents of the Group's activities, visual or audio > > presentations at the conference,or printed materials used at the > > conference (which are within the control of the Client) contain > > any defamation against the Government of the People's Republic > > of China, or show any disrespect to the Chinese culture, or > > violates any laws of the People's Republic of China or feature > > any topics regarding human rights or religion without prior > > approval from the Government of the People's Republic of China, > > the Hotel reserves the right to terminate the event on the spot > > and/or ask the person(s) who initiates or participates in any or > > all of the above action to leave the hotel premises immediately. > > > > The Client will support and assist the Hotel with the necessary > > actions to handle such situations. Should there be any financial > > loss incurred to the Hotel or damage caused to the Hotel's > > reputation as a result of any or all of the above acts, the Hotel > > will claim compensation from the Client." > > > >What does this condition mean ? The hotel staff would have, in theory, > >the legal right to shut down the meeting and ask the offending > >participants to leave the property immediately. While we do not > >foresee a situation where such action would take place, we feel that > >it is proper to disclose these conditions to the community. > > > >The members of the IAOC, speaking as individuals, do not like this > >condition as a matter of principle. The IAOC does believe that this > >condition would not prevent the IETF from conducting its business. > > > >We note that the Vancouver/Quebec survey conducted earlier this year > >asked for people to suggest venues in Asia; an overwhelming majority > >(94%) of those who mentioned China were in favor of having a meeting > >there. > > > >We are therefore asking for input from the community by two means - by > >commenting on the IETF discussion list, and also by completing a very > >short survey on people's intentions to travel to China, or not, > >subject to these conditions. This survey can be found here : > > > >https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=h4DUkRUOdG_2bVLqioPcYYHw_3d_3d > > > >All responses received by October 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM EDT (1300 UTC) > >will be considered by the IAOC in making its decision. We appreciate > >the assistance of the community in providing us with data that will > >help us to make an informed decision. > > > >Regards > >Marshall Eubanks > >(acting for the IAOC) > > > >_______________________________________________ > >IETF-Announce mailing list > >IETF-Announce@xxxxxxxx > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf