Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends (Re: Measuring IETF and IESG trends)

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Lakshminath,

Better understanding of the type of behaviors in this space would certainly be useful. And I don't want to disagree with your assessment of the behaviors; many of them sound like something that appears in practice. In particular, the shepherds are far less involved in the Discuss resolutions than the authors. And we do not involve the WGs as much as we should. I think writing guidelines on what the role of the various persons in the process is would be very useful. And obviously we should start by better following of the existing documents, like the Proto Shepherd RFC or the Discuss criteria document.

However, with regards to blocking consensus of a WG, please remember that the WG is not necessarily the only place where consensus is tested. I recently had a case which had significant IETF Last Call discussion. I held a Discuss to ensure that the (fairly clear, IMO) conclusion from the discussion would be taken into the document. It did eventually, but only after significant back-and-forth with the authors. Overriding the original WG consensus? Yes. Right thing to do? I think so, not only was it right technically but it was something backed up by the Last Call. Did we get the details right, did the text go too far or did it fall short? I don't know, its a judgment call. The end result was somewhere between the LC guidance and authors' opinions. Painful for the WG? Sure.

On text that comes from the IESG: this is more common in recent years than it was before. I am one of the ADs who tends to do that, both for the documents that I sponsor and for resolving my Discusses. But I would rather not do it. But I often end up doing it if there is no progress otherwise; I want to get my sponsored documents approved and I want to reduce the list of my outstanding Discusses. If I can help my authors by proposing text, I will do it. But I would really like to see the document shepherds in active role here. Or at least the authors. The general guidance for authors whose document gets a Discuss is to first confirm whether the raised issue is a real one or not. If it is not, ask the Discuss to be cleared. Fight if needed! If it is real, work with your shepherd and WG to develop a proposal to fix the problem. Mail the proposal to the Discussing ADs in a timely manner. Address explicitly all components raised in a Discuss, either by explaining how they are not issues or providing a solution to resolve the issue.

Jari

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