Re: IONs & discuss criteria

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Thanks for the clarification Cullen.  I appreciate it.  Speaking from 
the view point of someone on the other side, more often than not, a 
detailed DISCUSS is much more helpful.

Thank you again.

best wishes,
Lakshminath

On 3/6/2008 2:23 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> 
> Part of the reason I replied so quickly on this thread  is that I think 
> I currently have two discuss that do not meet the discuss criteria (this 
> being one of  them the other being on Lost). Totally fair to pick on me 
> here. Both were entered as, excuse the pun, fairly fluffy comments 
> because I believe fully stating each point by point things  would have 
> actually make it significantly harder for the editor of the documents to 
> find a good solution. In both cases I believe the editor pretty much 
> understands the issue and if I get requests to please rewrite to be a 
> reasonable discuss, I'm glad to do that after the meeting.
> 
> On Mar 6, 2008, at 1:35 PM, Lakshminath Dondeti wrote:
> 
>> Cullen,
>>
>> Thank you for your statement that you are keen to make sure your 
>> DISCUSSes are within the parameters of the discuss criteria ION.  I 
>> appreciate it.  Perhaps I am naive or my understanding of the English 
>> language is poor (they are both probably true), but could you explain 
>> how one of your most recent DISCUSSes:
>>
>> "Cullen Jennings:
>>
>> Discuss [2008-03-05]:
>> There has been a lot of discussion about keying modes for
>> SRTP, so I'm glad to see a document that covers this topic
>> for MIKEY. For that reason, I think it's really important
>> to get this right. It looks to me like some of the issues
>> EKR raises need to be fixed in order to achieve that."
>>
>> does not fit into the DISCUSS non-criteria?
>>
>> "Unfiltered external party reviews. While an AD is welcome to consult 
>> with external parties, the AD is expected to evaluate, to understand 
>> and to concur with issues raised by external parties. Blindly 
>> cut-and-pasting an external party review into a DISCUSS is 
>> inappropriate if the AD is unable to defend or substantiate the issues 
>> raised in the review."
>>
>> You chose to not even cut-and-paste the comments.
>>
>> I also wonder which of the DISCUSS criteria fit to advance that 
>> specific document to an informational RFC.   Are we to guess which of 
>> the "the issues EKR raises" the authors need to fix?
>>
>> Needless to say, we don't need to debate the specifics of that 
>> document here, but whereas your intent is honorable, the externally 
>> observable behavior is unfortunately different.  Sorry for picking on 
>> you; I can probably find other similar examples on other ADs, but I 
>> was thinking that the ION is not a BCP and so I have no basis to raise 
>> the issue.
>>
>> Perhaps I am misunderstanding the ION or perhaps as Brian says that 
>> there should be some flexibility in the application of the rules.
>>
>> regards,
>> Lakshminath
>>
>> On 3/6/2008 1:04 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>>> Ted,
>>> Speaking for myself here but I suspect that other ADs are in the 
>>> same  boat ... I'm keen to make sure my Discusses are within the 
>>> parameters  of the discuss criteria ION regardless of the official 
>>> status of this  document. Agree we need to sort out what we the end 
>>> result is of  several experiments. I believe Russ is working to get 
>>> that some IESG  agenda time.
>>> Cullen
>>> On Mar 6, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Ted Hardie wrote:
>>>> The call for comments on IONs seems to have ended without
>>>> clarifying the effect of the end of the experiment on the standing
>>>> of current IONs.  For most of them, I honestly don't think the
>>>> standing is much of an issue.  But for the "discuss criteria" ION,
>>>> I believe it is a serious issue.  At this point, it is difficult to  
>>>> know
>>>> whether the discuss criteria document is in force or not, and the
>>>> extent to which the issuing body is bound by it.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is a very bad thing.
>>>>
>>>> I call on Russ to restore this document to its original status as
>>>> an Internet Draft and to process it as a BCP.  IESG DISCUSSes are
>>>> a very serious part of our process at this point.  Having a community
>>>> agreed standard to which IESG members  could be held was always a  
>>>> better
>>>> path than than a document approved only by the IESG.  Now that
>>>> the ION experiment is over and the status of its document is in
>>>> limbo, things are even worse.
>>>>
>>>> The current document is here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/IESG/content/ions/ion-discuss-criteria.html
>>>>
>>>> for those readers playing the home game.
>>>>
>>>>                 Ted  Hardie
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IETF mailing list
>>> IETF@xxxxxxxx
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
> 
> 
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