--On Tuesday, 10 October, 2006 16:51 -0700 todd glassey
<tglassey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yes actually you do -how does anyone complained against know
> who is complaining or why? - if the complaints are not public
> then the oversight is not real - its a paper fiction - a lie
> in print.
>...
> So YES I want to know specifically who complained.
Todd,
While I'm reluctant to be sucked into this discussion, I think
your note shows a misunderstanding that needs to be clarified...
for the benefit of others, if not yours, because I don't think
you are listening (my personal opinion, only).
There seems to be a misunderstanding here in which the logic
goes as follows:
(1) The IETF and its actions are legislative, judicial,
or administrative procedures under the law of some
country, usually the US.
(2) Since (1) is true, there are specific rules that
apply and rights that derive from those rules.
(3) Those rules or rights are being violated.
Fortunately or unfortunately, the first premise is false.
Because it is false, the second is meaningless and the third
irrelevant. Just like every other standards development body
that operates in the US but one, the IETF is a private
organization with voluntary participation. And, just like all
of the others whose standards are not directly concerned with
safety, health, or regulatory matters, use of its standards are
voluntary. Nothing the IETF does falls directly into the
safety, health, or regulatory areas as those are normally
understood. Even if some IETF standards or recommendations were
incorporated into legislation or rule-making by other bodies,
that would not change the status of the IETF itself any more
than it has changed the status of other voluntary
standards-making bodies.
I believe that you have two, and only two, fundamental rights in
the IETF that do not derive directly from procedures adopted by
the IETF and that the IETF can change. The first of those is
to take any standardization (or other) work you want done
elsewhere, having it discussed and, if appropriate approved,
under the voluntary rules of that voluntary body (unless the
organization you choose or the topic fall under one of the
exception cases). And the second is to try to convince others
to join you in your opinion that the IETF is not sufficiently
fair and balanced (or for whatever real or imaginary reasons you
like) that anyone should pay attention to its standards and
recommendations. In neither case does the IETF has any right or
capability to interfere with your actions.
There are, of course, some edge-case exceptions. If you and
other members of some protected group were being systematically
discriminated against, you might have some special rights (I
stress "might", because that would swiftly become a matter for
lawyers and judges and, like you, I am neither). In addition,
if the IETF were actively and/or effectively acting in a way
that restrained trade or prevented competition in ways that
impacted you, you would have certain rights, differing by
country, and ways to seek remedies. However, those remedies and
the methods for seeking them, would lie outside the IETF and its
processes.
You don't have the "right" to know who complained because:
(1) Nothing in the IETF procedures gives you that right. While
Jordi might start a paragraph with a comment to the effect that
several people complained, he could equally have started it with
"it came to me in a dream last night": the two would have equal
effect since the procedures give the sergeant(s)-at-arms the
authority and obligation to make these determinations and do not
specify the ways in which they make them... other than
specifying some criteria and encouraging them to look at
patterns.
(2) As mentioned above, this is not a judicial or administrative
procedure from which additional right flow.
> ...
> whatever penalties it wants from individuals without the
> benefit of the appeal or the appeal process.
As has been pointed out, you have the right to discuss the
general behavior of the sergeant(s)-at-arms with the IETF Chair.
You have the right to complain about their decisions directly to
the IAB (per RFC 3005). But you have both of those rights
because, and only because, the IETF's procedures give them to
you.
john
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