Re: [Gen-art] Re: Gen-art review ofdraft-hartman-mailinglist-experiment-01.txt

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>>>>> "Margaret" == Margaret Wasserman <margaret@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

    Margaret> This document defines an RFC3933 experiment in which we
    Margaret> would temporarily give the IESG the authority to create
    Margaret> new mailing list management procedures and enact them.
    Margaret> The only hard limitations on this authority are that
    Margaret> posting suspensions cannot run beyond the timeframe of
    Margaret> the experiment (18 months), nor can the procedures
    Margaret> prevent anyone from reading an IETF mailing list.  The
    Margaret> document does not even limit the type of action that the
    Margaret> IESG can take -- while it only talks about posting
    Margaret> rights suspensions, this document would allow the IESG
    Margaret> to define an enact other types of mailing list control
    Margaret> at their discretion.  It explicitly does not require
    Margaret> that we use the same procedures on all IETF mailing
    Margaret> lists, as it explicitly allows the IESG to define
    Margaret> different procedures for different lists.

Note that this is the same authority the IESG had for WG mailing lists
under RFC 2418.

However I agree that this is not where we want to be long-term.

    Margaret> This document does not define any principles that the
    Margaret> IESG should follow in determining mailing list
    Margaret> management procedures, nor does it require any type of
    Margaret> community review or consensus to enact them.  

I think these are the sorts of details--principles and review
requirements--that the community needs to decide on.  I think that
will take a while to do, and it is my hope that this experiment may
provide input to that process.  Long term though I agree with you that
the BCP for mailing list management must provide principles.


    Margaret> At first, I thought it was the purpose of this document
    Margaret> to allow the IESG to try out different mailing list
    Margaret> management procedures on different IETF mailing lists
    Margaret> for a short period of time, with the goal of picking
    Margaret> some successful procedures that would later be discussed
    Margaret> by the community and potentially reflected in our BCPs.
    Margaret> In other words, I thought that this was a temporary
    Margaret> measure to address the weaknesses in our current
    Margaret> procedures and get some experience with alternatives.  I
    Margaret> still thought that the goal would be to settle on
    Margaret> well-defined, community-consensus-based procedures by
    Margaret> then end of this 18 months.  

That is the goal of this experiment.
I propose adding text to clarify this fact.

I propose adding to the end of the last paragraph in the introduction:

  This experiment is successful if it gives the community useful input
  on how to design mailing list management process.  It is not expected
  that this experiment will be adopted in its current form as a
  permenant BCP.

    Margaret> At that time, I supported
    Margaret> this document, because I saw it as a better alternative
    Margaret> than living with our broken procedures until the
    Margaret> community could fix them.  I thought that the IESG could
    Margaret> end this experiment if/when we had community consensus
    Margaret> on a new set of procedures.


I still believe that to be true.


I'm sorry if my comments at the general area meeting were confusing.
I believe that as a general rule you want the operative part of an
experiment to look like a BCP.  I've been pushing fairly hard for this
even in this case because this is one of the first experiments we are
running.  I do not believe that this current experiment would make a
great BCP.

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