I didn't make it to the mic fast enough at the end, but Brian's comment about the proposal to outlaw diffserv actually gets to the heart of why the IAB needs to take specific stands and make public comments. Telling the telco's they are evil is not the point. General statements of principle or observations of past behavior like 'walled gardens are not conducive to open application innovation and frequently result in additional layering complexity to traverse the walls', or 'allowing people to elect going to the head of the line is what the QoS toolset is about'. I am not sure what the right language is but there is probably something the IAB could say about misusing the tools to effectively set up an extortion/protection racket being a possible side effect that regulators might want to consider, but that cutting off the tools outright would actually hamper some potential new service and application development. The point is that if the IAB stands back without making any statement there will be no guidance about the impacts of various business/deployment models. Something along the lines of 4084 that takes no particular position of right or wrong, but identifies the consequences of potential actions might help to stabilize the public debate. After all even open application development might be considered wrong by some, but when coupled with the observation that it happens anyway with more complexity and cost might get all the fundamental issues on the table. Tony _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf