--On Thursday, 19 January, 2006 20:03 -0500 Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@xxxxxxx> wrote: >... > Even by his own admission Jefsey has been engaging in > filibustering--a practice that I think we would agree is > disruptive. Take a look at his most recent appeal to the IESG > (http://www.ietf.org/IESG/APPEALS/jefsey-morfin-appeal.txt ); > quoting from that appeal: >... > As such, I agree that we need to adopt a strategy that > prevents Jefsey from disrupting our processes excessively. > > However a PR action is an incredibly huge hammer. If passed, > it removes any process barrier to shutting Jefsey out of any > IETF process. While this PR action is specifically targeted > at the ietf-languages list it would give the person running > any IETF list the ability to unilaterally remove Jefsey from > that list. > > Perhaps this is an appropriate measure to take when all of a > person's participation are destructive and they have nothing > to offer. > > That's not true for Jefsey. Jefsy has made significant > positive contributions to the IETF list. He has worked to > describe the perceptions that the IETF, IANA, ICAN, and > related entities are creating a US-centric Internet. He has > described concerns of global users and how our protocols, > including IDN, may not meet user requirements. These concerns > are real and parts of them have been worked on by > long-standing members of the community. Take a look at RFC > 4185 for an example of a concern that Jefsey shares that > members of this organization have spent time working on. I > personally have found Jefsey's formulations of these concerns > enlightening; I think he has significantly helped me > understand how the IETF might be perceived and what some user > concerns with our protocol might be. >... I have to reluctantly agree with Sam. I'm reluctant because there are far too many days when I wish Jefsey would just quietly go away Of course, he is not the only person I'd put on that list, and I imagine I'm on some similar lists kept by others, but that is exactly the point and the problem. I have many wishes about Jefsey and his behavior. I often wish he would change his tone. I wish he would spend a little more time trying to understand some of the protocols and operational and procedural realities (such as the present decision-making role of the IAB relative to IETF activities, the procedural relationship of the DNS to other directory services, and so on) before making loud and repeated assertions about them. And, when he is told to take particular topics elsewhere, I wish he would heed that advice. That said, when he appears to be deliberately filibustering, or otherwise repeating the same comments over and over again, I see that as more than adequate justification for enforced time-outs from the relevant lists. But I'm not convinced that any of this is evidence of the type of deliberately offensive or abusive behavior, name-calling, or attempts to create disruption for its own sake that, in my view, would justify a blanket 3683 action. For whatever it is worth, I want to remind the IESG that, before there was RFC 3683, there was a notion, not only of 30 day suspensions, but of exponential (or other rapidly increasing series) back-off. If someone is being severely disruptive on a particular list, it would seem reasonable to me for the relevant AD to authorize a 60 day suspension if a 30 day one is ineffective, a 120 day suspension if that is ineffective, and so on. The nature of that arithmetic is such that someone could, with sufficient repeated disruptive behavior, find themselves rather effectively banned for the effective duration of a WG. If the IESG believes that a formal RFC3933 experiment is needed to do that, then let's write down and run that experiment. But, until we have tried the above --and any other plausible actions we can think of-- let's save the 3683 actions for those whose behavior is more clearly inappropriate and non-constructive than Jefsey's. john _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf