--On Monday, 02 January, 2006 11:39 +0200 Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@xxxxxxx> wrote: > And why do all the other SDOs get along with non-ASCII formats? > On my intranet I have a list of 120+ SDOs in the communications > and computer-science fields, and although I haven't gone > through them all (I have asked someone to do so) I haven't > found another group that uses ASCII files. > > If the axiom is so strong, then why doesn't it bother anyone > else? At least one of the reasons is that most of those groups are moving very slowly away from a paper-based mentality and, in most cases, a charge-for-standards (on paper and surrogates for paper) mentality. With that combination, a format such as PDF page images (without extractable text) is acceptable and may actually be an advantage -- it can be read, printed, and is guaranteed to reproduce the appearance of the printed page exactly. Similarly, concerns about proprietary formats with widely-available "readers" such as MS Word may be less than the concerns would be if "editable without information loss" were a requirement. In many cases, distribution in Word or PDF has been justified as increasing distribution speed and lowering (printing, postage, and mailing) costs to the SDO, with no changes in procedures about how those documents are handled, reviewed, and processed. The IETF and its predecessors started with, and continues, a collaborative norm in which the ability of everyone to read, extract from, and manipulate an online document is vitally important, in part because we have long believed that materials and consensus need to be developed on mailing lists, not by lengthy development meetings and whiteboards followed by transcription into the next fixed-benchmark version of a document. I see a number of SDOs moving toward that norm, but most of them are doing so in baby steps. For several of them, I would not expect the concept of proprietary formats, and display-only distributed documents, to survive for very long once they get to the state of online collaboration and editing that we have been at for 20 or 30 years. Finally, there is a longstanding and more or less explicit decision in the IETF community to keep the costs of participation as low as possible and, in particular, to not have costs imposed by the SDO become a bar to effective participation. It is getting harder --much harder than I personally considerable-- to participate effectively in the IETF without ever setting foot in a meeting, but it is still possible to do so. Against our "minimal required costs" background, effectively insisting a participant maintain a current version of a particular operating system on which to run particular versions of word processing and document presentation software is a pretty steep cost requirement. That sensitivity to costs of participation is not as important to most of the SDOs on my list and, I would assume, on yours. Instead, their norm is participation or membership fees that, in many cases, I consider high enough to be barriers, requirements for meeting attendance. If the minimum entry cost for participation in SDO X --including membership fees and minimal meeting attendance costs-- is $5K or $10K or more, then maybe maintaining even a dedicated machine for dealing with their documents is a reasonable marginal cost. But, for IETF participation, it is not. john _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf