Yaakov, On Wed, Sep 21, 2005 at 08:58:12AM +0200, Yaakov Stein wrote: > > Most of the comments have questioned the "cost" of adding > 2 ADs to the lucky number 13. > > However, there are a other large numbers to consider. > For example 26 and 24 - the number of WGs in the transport > and Internet areas, respectively. > > I have never seen a senior manager in a commercial enterprise > to whom 26 subordinates, each responsible for completely distinct > disciplines, directly report. > > Decreasing the number of WGs per area to a number that > can be reasonably managed and technically lead by the AD > is one of the advantages of the proposal. Most Areas organize themselves in such a way that each AD manages about half of the total. Having said that, even in that case, the transport area is still quite large and there is indeed a misfit for some working groups. I do support a reorganization to address this problem. However, I believe that we should try to do this reorganization without adding more ADs to the IESG. Nobody has seriously looked at this option. What we are proposing now is the traditional way how organizations keep growing in size as we all get focussed on adding features to solve our problems instead of balancing scarce resources and reducing our coverage in areas that have grown less important or are relatively small but are still served by two ADs. For example, I proposed that we could also add the Real-Time Applications to the Applications area with a new updated charter to reflect this change (Or add the Applications Area to the Real-Time Applications area). That way, all these groups will be under the same roof too without having to increase the number of ADs. Other solutions are possible too, like creating this area but for example reducing the number of ADs in other areas or combining them. I can even think of a few variants where the Ops & Mgmt area gets some additional work at the Mgmt side as we are for example already quite active with infrastructure applications like Radius. We could in that case become the Ops & Infrastructure Area. I notice that nobody has really responded with suggestions on how this could be achieved or with alternatives for my suggestion as there are obviously many possible variants. Is it perhaps easier to let the bureaucracy grow instead of looking seriously at ways to make us operate more efficient ? And growing before we have the structure in place to actually allow this growth seems real risky: this is the perfect way to get to a situation of total gridlock. This is what we have been doing in the past and it hasn't worked so well. It is time to stop this. > And this will still leave a manageable 15 members in the IESG. First of all I don't believe that 15 members in the IESG is manageable in any way or form. In fact, I believe that 13 members is already not manageable. Note that the next proposal for an additional area is just around the corner: the Internet area has a very heavy load of working groups as well and the next thing that could easily be imagined is a Mobility Area which also sounds very reasonable. Are we going to tell them then that they cannot have their own area while we just added another one for Real-Time Applications ? David Kessens --- _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf