I think it is a matter of who determines "rough consensus". It is actually very hard to determine and prove - after all I don't want a straight up/down vote (lets go give a copy of Roberts Rules of Order to every WG chair to run their WGs by) to determine rough consensus - sometimes it is the ONE person that deeply understands the issue voting one way against a herd of people that is indeed correct - once the analysis is done. I believe it is the IESGs job to: 1) Determine that all the processes are followed 2) To the best of their ability - determine and come to consensus on what the "rough consensus" is on an issue 3) Follow up with the working group/individual submitter on how their determination of rough consensus might be different from what is said in the draft they are evaluating So yes, a few times it may look like the IESG is imposing unreasonable technical decisions into a discussion. However - I believe it is mainly a case of making sure that they believe that the processes were correctly followed and giving weight to the factors that affect their determination of consensus. Bill > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: Should the IESG rule or not? and all that... > From: Dave Crocker <dhc2@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: Fri, July 01, 2005 3:42 pm > To: Keith Moore <moore@xxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: braden@xxxxxxx, dcrocker@xxxxxxxx, ietf@xxxxxxxx > > > You seem to think that every IETF participant _except_ those on IESG > > should do so. You seem to think that everyone else should be able to > > exercise their judgement but that the IESG should just serve as > > process facilitators and rubber stamp technical decisions that others > > make. > > Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought the exercise of IETF judgement relied on > rough consensus. Having a subset of folks impose their own, personal > preferences -- oh, sorry, their judgement -- is not using rough consensus to > make ietf decisions. > > In other words, Keith, I did not say what you are asserting. I did not mean > what you are asserting. > > What I said is that the IETF is supposed to be the decision-maker, not the IESG. > > -- > > d/ > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > +1.408.246.8253 > dcrocker a t ... > WE'VE MOVED to: www.bbiw.net > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf