Re: Voting (again)

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On Tuesday, April 26, 2005 04:21:21 PM -0400 John C Klensin <john-ietf@xxxxxxx> wrote:

First, the IESG job has become so burdensome in part because of
decisions by the IESG about how much work they need to do and to
what level of detail they need to address documents.  To take a
handy, but deliberately non-specific, example, if the IESG
considers it appropriate to hold a document up over the wording
of a title or abstract, and to debate that wording, the cycles
that go into the discussion are, however indirectly, a
contribution to the IESG's becoming a full time job.   I would
rather see the IESG fix that than having the community apply
whatever blunt instruments it has --and there are some signs
that the current IESG might make some steps in the right
direction.  But, to the extent to which the Nomcom selects
people who are happy having the IESG be a full time job, rather
than dedicated to getting that workload down, the Nomcom and the
community are endorsing what we then complain about.

All of this is true. And, it's part of why I think that present IESG members are an essential part of any attempt to correct the full-time-job problem. Note, however, that reducing the workload is not the only possible solution. I suspect that even partial funding for these positions would make it easier for people to volunteer.




Second, there are well-known phenomena in many political systems
that lead people to say "well, that body consists mostly of
scum, but my representative is a good guy".  The US Congress has
turned into a particularly striking example, but it is by no
means unique.    The attitude creates a very strong bias toward
reselection of incumbents.   I suggest that the community, and
the Nomcoms, end up suffering from the same phenomenon and that,
if we don't like the symptoms that seem to come with people who
have been on the IESG for too long, we need to start thinking
about ways to adjust the system to prevent the "too long"
situation.

I think the US Congress could benefit from term limits. I'm not so sure about the IESG. I think a certain amount of continuity is a good thing, and I start to worry when we have both AD's in an area turn over in less than a year. And perhaps I'm in the minority, but on the whole I tend to believe the IESG is doing a reasonable job, and that its biggest problem is being too slow. But then, I tend to believe the IESG should be somewhat conservative about insisting that documents produced by the IETF be of the highest technical quality (which is not the same as nitpicking about the abstract, or references, or document formatting, or other nits. Those things should be done too, but before the document reaches the IESG and not by the IESG).




Finally (at least for this note), the rate at which incumbents
are returned if they are willing to put up with more punishment
suggests that Nomcoms are asking not whether someone new could
do the job about as well but whether they could do a better job
than the incumbent.  Unless an incumbent is perceived as having
really screwed up, the answer to that question will almost
always be "no".  If nothing else, IESG roles are complex and
anyone new will lose some number of weeks or months reading into
the role.  Also someone new is always an uncertainty and it is
rational and normal for, e.g., a WG Chair to advise the nomcom
that a particular AD should be returned based on logic of "I
have figured out how to work with this one, even though it is
sometimes difficult; I wouldn't look forward to breaking in a
new one, risking a worse relationship, etc."

I'm not sure this is a bad thing. Sure, we could decide that we want term limits, in which case when the term limit is up the outgoing AD is simply not eligible. But lacking that, I think continuity is good, and the bar to remove an incumbent _should_ be a bit higher. After all, while most employers do periodic performance reviews, I know of very few that periodically look for applicants with the intention of firing someone who is doing a decent job on the grounds that they found someone who might be better.




In addition to
the "too long in position" issues raised above, this interacts
with the workload and volunteers problem: Indicating
availability for one of these positions, and then staying
available, is itself a big commitment.  That is a commitment not
just for an individual but for a company.  It is tolerable if
there is a reasonable expectation of getting the position and
having an opportunity to serve.  But, if the odds are high that
the incumbent will be returned no matter what, the incentives to
get the needed approvals and resources lined up are really very
poor.  We are hence seeing problems convincing people to put
their names in the pot against the name of an incumbent who is
doing even a passable job... and I predict that will get worse.

This is a problem, and it's not. On the one hand, it's poor that the nomcom doesn't have a ready pool of qualified volunteers if they should decide to remove an incumbent. On the other hand, if qualified people are not willing to put their names in the pot, perhaps it's because they don't think the incumbent needs to be replaced, and that's worth considering.


-- Jeff

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