I agree.
John L.
-- original message --
Subject: Re: Consensus search: #725 3.4b Appealing decisions
From: Brian E Carpenter <brc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 01/13/2005 3:08 pm
I think this is acceptable given that we *also* have a recall
procedure. In other words, if the IAOC isn't responsive
to a clear message from a review that "you screwed up", then
we'd better make sure that a recall is initiated.
Brian
Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
> On reviewing #725 on appealing decisions, and the crosslinked #720 on
> IAD autonomy, I sense a disquiet in the community.
>
> On the one hand, we recognize that a well functioning IAD and IAOC needs
> to be allowed to run the show without a thousand people trying to "put
> their hands on the tiller".
>
> On the other hand, the community is deeply uneasy about setting up a
> situation where we have decisions being made that profoundly affect the
> working of the IETF, and if we disagree with the decision, the only
> response we can get from anyone in authority is "I made the decision. Go
> away."
>
> The second concern was perhaps best expressed by Avri Doria:
>
>> A letter of complaint requires no response unless there is something
>> that formalizes the requirement of response.
>>
>> And if there is no procedure indicating that the IAOC needs to pay
>> attention to a letter of complain, that decision, i.e the one to ignore
>> letters of complain, cannot be appealed.
>>
>> So, as I see it, without a formalized process of complaint/appeal of
>> IAD actions we are left with no avenue to deal with problems other then
>> by the yearly nomcom process and the IETF list.
>
>
> And the first viewpoint was perhaps best expressed by John Klensin:
>
>> If people don't believe that The Right Thing is being done, they
>> shouldn't be looking in detail at particular decisions. They
>> should, instead, be suggesting that the IAOC review its own
>> decisions contributing whatever additional information is
>> available to that review. And, if the IAOC adopts a pattern of
>> doing Wrong Things, it should be time to replace them (starting
>> with a request for resignations), not to try to retune or
>> override individual decisions.
>>
>> Get the right people into these positions, and then let them do
>> the job.
>>
>> If we can't find the right people and put them there, then none
>> of these procedures --other than firing the duds and trying
>> again-- are good enough to protect the IETF. Perhaps worse, we
>> then run the risk of getting us seriously bogged down while we
>> try to use those incremental correction procedures.
>
>
> In the debate, I suggested a resolution that involved keeping the
> in-draft version of the appeals procedure, with three differences:
>
> - Not limited to procedure, and not limited to the IAOC
> - Abandoning the "chain" model of "if you don't like one decision, try
> again" that the current appeal structure has
> - Not using the word "appeal"
>
> While debate did not stop, this did not seem like a bad idea.
>
> So here's another attempt at section 3.5, replacing the last 3
> paragraphs of section 3.4:
>
> 3.5 Decision review
>
> In the case where someone questions a decision of the IAD or the
> IAOC, he or she may ask for a formal review of the decision.
>
> The request for review is addressed to the person or body that made
> the decision. It is up to that body to decide to make a response,
> and on the form of a response.
>
> The IAD is required to respond to requests for a review from the
> IAOC, and the IAOC is required to respond to requests for a review
> of a decision from the IAB or from the IESG.
>
> If members of the community feel that they are unjustly denied a
> response to a request for review, they may ask the IAB or the IESG
> to make the request on their behalf.
>
> Answered requests for review and their responses are made public.
>
> I think that should be enough - the IAD and IAOC can route all frivolous
> requests to /dev/null; the decision of the IESG to not ask the IAOC for
> a review is an IESG action that can be handled in the usual way; there
> is no formal "I can overturn your decision" involved; if the IAOC shows
> a pattern of replying "go away" when a review is requested, that becomes
> a matter of public record, and can be used at nomcom time.
>
> Does this seem like a reasonable point on the various scales of concern?
>
> Harald
>
>
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