On 12-May-24 20:14, Eliot Lear wrote:
Thanks; I was confused by your answer. You're essentially eliminating not only ANSI, but ISO, IEC, vertical organizations like KNX, and perhaps most relevant to this organization, IEEE.
Which, as citizens of the real world, we absolutely cannot do (and never have done, since before RFC 2026). For things on which our whole edifice depends, it would be the height of absurdity *not* to reference them.
I'm all in favour of also citing accessible material, but if we need an IEEE etc. standard, we simply have no choice.
*Also*. My recent experience is that access to the specifications is often not enough to implement, because of IPR licensing issues. If you *really *want to go down this rabbit hole, it's a LONG way down.
Quite. But all vendors have this problem, and either pay up or go rogue - their choice, not ours.
This is a tricky issue for open source projects, but not one that the IETF can solve.
Brian
Eliot
On 12.05.2024 09:11, Mark Nottingham wrote:
I stated both a strong preference (free) and a floor (RAND) in my original email.
Sent from my iPhone
On 12 May 2024, at 4:25 PM, Eliot Lear<lear@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Mark,
Hang on a moment. Before you were arguing for RAND. Now you're arguing for free. Which is it?
Eliot
On 12.05.2024 02:03, Mark Nottingham wrote:
My .02: Informational.
On 12 May 2024, at 10:01, Erik Kline<ek.ietf@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On this week's telechat ishttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lamps-rfc5990bis/ which has a Normative dependency on ANSI X9.44.
I didn't know where to find that spec, but some light googling turned up:https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/ascx9/ansix9442007r2017 which suggests it's available for 60 USD.
What would your recommendation be for handling this draft?
On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 3:56 PM Eric Rescorla<ekr@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
I concur with Mark.
The general principle here is that it should be possible to implement the protocol specified in an RFC without payment of a fee to access the specification. By definition, a normative reference is required to implement the protocol and therefore any normative references fall under this principle. I recognize that S 7.1.1 is somewhat fuzzy on this topic (in that it defines an open standard without reference to free availability).
An Internet Standard TS or AS may incorporate an open external
standard by reference. For example, many Internet Standards
incorporate by reference the ANSI standard character set "ASCII" [2].
Whenever possible, the referenced specification shall be available
online.
However, the text that Mark quotes makes it clear that free availability is a non-requirement, which I think goes in the wrong direction.
I don't think we should publish this document as-is.
-Ekr
On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:49 PM Mark Nottingham<mnot=40mnot.net@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm sure that this has been discussed somewhere already, but I object to this text in the draft:
Note that there is no requirement for a freely available copy of the reference after the publication of the draft as an RFC, nor is there any requirement that the copies be provided to the general public.
This leaves the door open for an arbitrary fee or license being required to implement IETF standards, in direct contravention of its OpenStand commitments to have "[d]efined procedures to develop specifications that can be implemented under *fair terms*" (emphasis mine) and to "[ensure] a broad affordability of the outcome of the standardization process."[^1]
If we choose to allow this, at a minimum the draft needs to contain firm guidelines regarding the terms that such references are available to the public under -- regarding aspects such as intellectual property licensing, financial reasonableness, non-discriminatory access, and so forth.
That said, I think we can do better. One of the definitions of 'open standards' is _free to implement_, and I would hope that the IETF aspires to that.
Cheers,
[^1]: see<https://open-stand.org/resources/>, slide 3
On 11 May 2024, at 01:51, The IESG<iesg-secretary@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider the
following document: - 'Procedure for Standards Track Documents to Refer
Normatively to
External Documents'
<draft-kucherawy-bcp97bis-05.txt> as Best Current Practice
The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
last-call@xxxxxxxx mailing lists by 2024-06-07. Exceptionally, comments may
be sent toiesg@xxxxxxxx instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
Abstract
This document specifies a procedure for referencing external
standards and specifications from IETF-produced documents on the
Standards Track. In doing so, it updates BCP 9 (RFC 2026).
The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kucherawy-bcp97bis/
No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
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