Hi John, Brian,
First of all, thank you for your replies on the thread.
At 04:00 PM 03-10-2023, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Nobody is denying the sociological advantages of attending meetings.
But the IETF has consistently tried to mitigate them. (And if people
choose to avoid such mitigation, for example by choosing not to be
on the last-call list, or this list, that is their own problem.)
I would phrase the above a bit differently instead of saying that is
their problem.
At 06:39 PM 03-10-2023, John C Klensin wrote:
For those, including I think Jason, who have argued that
"pay-to-play" is the wrong description of the core problem, I
agree. I just don't think a perhaps-questionable choice of
terminology makes that problem go away. "Join a mailing list"
is, to me, an example. Perhaps my memory is suffering from
nostalgia for older times, but my sense is that, some years ago,
it really was possible to effectively participate in the IETF
standards development process by joining and participating on a
few mailing lists. The mailing lists were actually the main
locus for decision-making and the IESG was steering and, to some
extent, managing, but not also laying out the terms and
conditions of the discussions.
Jason was on the IETF LLC the last time I looked it up; that was
several years ago. There are (unwritten) conventions which are
usually followed by people who are in such positions.
As John mentioned, there was a time when it was possible to
participate effectively in the standards process.
The other investment required to participate in the IETF is time
and, no matter what else changes or remains the same, those who
are in a position to spend most of their time on the IETF
(whether because someone is paying them to do so or because they
have minimal other commitments) are going to be in the advantage
relative to people whose participation is necessarily more
limited. If it works, "join a mailing list" helps get the
perspectives of those participants who are not substantially
full time get into the system and be treated fairly because it
is asynchronous -- one can, in principle, look at a mailing list
every day or two, catch up on what has been going on, and still
contribute effectively.
The investment is the time required to track the work together with
time zone and seasonal adjustments (the seasons occur at a different
time in some parts of the world). It is not sustainable for long
term involvement. It should not be a surprise that people from
lesser regions are absent from the mailing lists. I leave it to the
subscribers of this IETF mailing list to conclude whether that is by
design or not.
Regards,
S. Moonesamy
