Re: AD review delays

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On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 4:20 PM, John C Klensin <john-ietf@xxxxxxx> wrote:

--On Tuesday, June 20, 2023 20:16 +0200 Robert Raszuk
<robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

In regards to AD's reviews is there some expectation that AD is a subject matter expert in the Area(s) he or she is controlling/overlooking ?

At least for the first three decades or more of the IETF's existence, that was precisely the assumption. There have always been some edge case topic areas in which IETF expertise, including AD expertise, has been a little sparse but, in general, yes. "Subject matter expert" does not imply that the ADs are expected to be omniscient: if either they or IETF participants think they are, that is a whole different problem.


Yup - "Subject matter expert" doesn't mean that an AD knows *everything* about *everything* in their area, but they should know enough to be able to grok what's happening in all of their WGs, understand the documents that they are progressing, and detect bad smells when something isn't right. In addition, they should be able to understand enough technology in *other* areas to be able to say "Oi! This document says that the cross beams MAY go askew on the treddle, but that will break the usage of treddles in the MILL WG in my area. MILL assumes that treddles are always straight…".

Obviously ADs are human (although I am somewhat irked at John's implication that I'm not actually omniscient), and so there will be areas where they are more or less experty - for example, no matter how much I try, I simply cannot become deeply interested in benchmarking, and it's hard to be an expert in something that holds little personal interest. However, by 1: trusting my chairs[0], 2: listening to the discussions in the WG, 3: listening to the last call comments, 4: relying on directorates, and 5: doing the best that I can, I think that I'm doing an acceptable job with BMWG. Of course, I'm exceptionally lucky that BMWG is low drama, friendly, and generally doesn't conflict with other work.


If and when we reach the point where that is not true, there are many things in our procedures for reviewing and approving documents that should be reevaluated.

You may want to have a look at a discussion now occurring on the rswg list that bears on a different aspect of the question.

And what happens if that assumption is not correct ?

We either make some very fundamental changes to how we do things
-- changes that assume that ADs are just administrators and judges of procedures -- or the concept of "IETF Consensus" becomes essentially meaningless are a mark of broadly understood and accepted technical validity.


Yes. Although, a surprisingly large amount of an ADs role *is* administrative / process. Actually, perhaps "leadership" is a better word, but that's not quite right either… When I initially took on the role, I'd assumed that it was almost entirely technical, but a surprising amount turns out to be mixture of "Yes, I understand that she said that your protocol was bloated and ugly, but in all fairness, last week you *did* call her document turgid and unreadable. Let's all just take a breath and remember why we are here… K, friends? Now shake on it…", chasing chairs to get agendas (and minutes!) posted on time, helping authors navigate the process, helping newcomers navigate the intricacies of draft naming[1], dealing with session conflicts, dealing with various liaison roles, etc.

Obviously you also have to be a SME in your area, but I suspect that, for many IETF people, that's the "easy" part. This other part turns out to actually be quite fun, and, for me at least, has been a good learning opportunity….


And, btw, the worst possible case would be ADs who are not subject matter experts but think they are.


Hrmph. I generally like ending my mail with snark, but in this case I simply agree with you…

W
[0]: I'm incredibly lucky that I've had such awesome chairs, especially in BMWG. 
[1]: "No, no, no, it's really quite simple see?  Now, pay attention. It's draft-<something vaguely like the concatenation of your names, but, em, shorter>-<the WG that you intend it for…. oh, you don't know which WG?! Well that's a problem…>-<a description of the proposal in two or three words, separated by dashes>-<the version number. This must be 2 digits, and it starts at 0. Well, actually 00>.xml… What? You don't write XML? Weird, but we have many alternatives which can be converted to XML…"


best,
john



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