On 4/2/21 4:22 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: [snip]
Now let us come to "A Modest Proposal." This is not the first time that satirical essay has come up in the IETF context. Ted Hardie used it a couple of times I can remember, and I don't think he was the first in my history in the IETF. And yet several of those times, specific people in our community spoke up and said that because of their background, they felt excluded, hurt, or offended by that particular reference.
As a member of the Roman Catholic church and a man of Irish heritage I guess I should be able to claim that my background caused me to be hurt by Swift's satire. But while I'm Irish Catholic, I'm also an adult and, though some may quibble, a reasonable person so I am not offended by Swift's satirical essay.
So, we as a community have history. We know that essay strikes at people because of their racial or other aspects of their background.
No, "we" don't. I have actually no idea what you're talking about or who these "specific people in our community" were. I notice you use very active verbs, verbs that can imply violence. You say a few pieces of paper "strikes at people". No. No they don't. They just lie there. They are inanimate. People can read them and be offended but that's on them.
USING THAT REFERENCE WITHOUT TAKING THAT INTO ACCOUNT IS DISRESPECTFUL and EXCLUSIONARY TOWARD CURRENT CONTRIBUTORS.
I DISAGREE WITH YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY! THIS HISTORY YOU TALK ABOUT IS NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE. NOBODY IS BEING EXCLUDED BECAUSE MENTION WAS MADE OF THAT ESSAY.
If you're going to make a "modest proposal," you'd better be explaining why you chose to do something that is hurtful.
Well, you're assuming that I made that reference knowing that it was hurtful and that it "strikes at people". If you're going to make that assumption you better be explaining why.
What other options did you consider? Why could you not make your point that way?
I considered very few. I thought "what's an example of extreme satire?" That, naturally, came to mind. And no, I don't think I could've made my point any other way. The "les white" I-Ds were not meant to be taken literally. Same as "A Modest Proposal". It was satire. Extreme. Rude. But satire.
And if you still choose that option, are you expressing regret when people are hurt or uncomfortable because of the reference you choose? In the specific case of "A Modest Proposal," I don't personally think there's ever a need to use that reference in the IETF.
And so now Swift gets cancelled (at least at the IETF). Why? Because there's an assertion that someone somewhere got offended by that reference at one time. That's it. Sorry Dean Swift. What drives acceptability now is the lowest common denominator of feelings. If someone somewhere gets the sads over reading something then that's it. Your essay is now officially cancelled. Maybe there's a statue of him somewhere we can tear down.
But even if you disagree with me, you could do a lot more to show respect for your fellow contributors than people have done in this instance. And no, I'm not saying you need to hold back from expressing controversial opinions even if you know or suspect people will feel hurt when they hear the opinion.
Actually that is exactly what you're saying. I don't want to hurt people but when we decide what is acceptable speech based on the reaction of someone to it, we turn the tables. Now you can't say anything remotely controversial because I can come along and claim I'm offended by your statement. It doesn't matter how innocuous it was or what your intent was. What matters is how I feel. You will be forced to retract it and if I push it, you will made to grovel and apologize for causing me offense. It gives me incredible power over you. That means you will be walking on egg shells and that is no way to go through life. Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
