Re: [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-gont-numeric-ids-sec-considerations-06.txt> (Security Considerations for Transient Numeric Identifiers Employed in Network Protocols) to Best Current Practice

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Hi Fernando and others,

This is a pretty good document, and on the whole I applaud your focus on improving the resiliency of the overall architecture.  

I have but one issue.

There is brief mention of TCP ports in the introduction, and a misstatement in the bullet list referred to on the top of page 3 - “predictable transport protocol numbers” where I think you mean transport protocol port numbers.  You refer also to TCP ports in Section 3.  You may well be right that there was no security consideration given initially to these numbers (I don’t know- I wasn’t there).  You may also be right that services can be the subject of various forms of attack based on these numbers.

However, the document doesn’t really go into enough detail to discuss the tradeoffs that are necessary around to be helpful in the context of this registry.  In many cases, it would be perfectly fine for clients to make use of QUIC or HTTPS, and indeed that happens to such an extent that we can’t easily measure it (a testament to LetsEncrypt, the TLS WG, and QUIC, I suppose).  As a port reviewer, I see two continuing challenges for implementations:

  • Service discovery and autonomic configuration.  Put more simply, plug and pray.  A great many of our requests are focused on just that, requiring a UDP port for multicast and a TCP port to get through enterprise firewalls.
  • Supervisory architectures in which more than one entity may be responsible for a service.  Not everything can run on port 443 in these instances, and yet the tooling wants to discover those functions.

This is a lengthy discussion, and as Mirja should have been reminding me (yes, it’s of course your fault Mirja), I am remiss in writing up a draft about this.  My suggestion is that you drop the topic of TCP/UDP port numbers, except to perhaps suggest that some consideration is needed about their utility versus the risks, and that this needs to be further explored.  No need to otherwise hold up this good work.

When we get around to that document, we can update again RFC 3552 but also RFC 6335.

IMHO we can do a lot better on improving privacy and resilience wrt discovery.

Eliot

On 11 Dec 2020, at 01:53, Fernando Gont <fgont@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi, Russ,

Thanks a lot for your feedback! In-line....

On 9/12/20 18:09, Russ Housley wrote:
I have to comments.
1) I do not see this document as a BCP.  Despite the inclusion of the boilerplate, there is not a single MUST in the document.  I have no objection to an Informational RFC.

FWIW, version -04 had the following text:

---- cut here ----
5.  Security and Privacy Requirements for Identifiers

  Protocol specifications that specify transient numeric identifiers
  MUST:
---- cut here ----

This was changed in response to feedback we got. But we could add some text in that line, whether "MUST" or "SHOULD"

I believe it would be a shame for us to be unable to do a BCP on the topic, given the bad track the IETF has had with respect to transient identifiers, and given that, for multiple reasons, this effort has taken about 5 years so far....


2) The document is really about transient identifiers.  It does not only apply to ones that are numeric.

That's probably the case. However, the ones we assessed are all numeric identifiers. And those are the ones that we have analyzed in the companion document draft-irtf-pearg-numeric-ids-generation

Just curious: what are the non-numeric transient identifiers you had in mind?

Thanks!

Regards,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492




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