I'm not sure I see the ambiguities you assert. Pekka Savola wrote: [..] > - These are so overly broad statements that they're close to unusable > UNLESS you believe IETF is just a rubber-stamping standards > organization. For example, what constitutes "deploying networks"? > IETF certainly shouldn't be go digging fibers, or give advice on how > to dig fibers. > > But as the vast evidence makes it clear, most ISPs do a very lousy job > of deploying networks *properly*, causing harm to the Internet as a > whole. Wouldn't it be somewhat in the IETF's business to try to give > advice (using BCP and Info documents) how to do it better? I can't see your problem here. Clearly we know what it means to actually deploy a network. Saying that the IETF does not deploy networks in no way inhibits the IETF from giving guidance to good (or purported to be good) engineering practise and trade-offs. So Harald's observation about IETF not deploying networks is spot on. [..] > Similarly, "building products" is vague, and may become problematic > especially if one believes the IETF (however that decision could be > reached is another can of worms entirely) has the power to say "No, we > don't want to standardize FOO" or "No, we don't want to standardize > the means to do BAR using the approach FOO". Then the vendor could > argue it's not the IETF's business to tell how it should build it's > products. "Building products" isn't vague at all. By your own example the IETF isn't building any product, although it might be a nuisance to the marketing arm of any vendor who wished to build a product that incorporated "non approved" protocols, techniques or technologies. No problem, vendors do that all the time. The IETF still does not build products. [..] > "Regulating the Internet" is also not problem-free. If the IETF > decides not to standarize or publish something which is considered to > be a Bad Thing (e.g., NAT for IPv6, Wiretapping mechanisms, VOIP > Backdoors, etc.etc.) -- couldn't one argue that the IETF is basically > regulating the Internet by some means? "Regulation" has a specific conotation here of government legislation, rules or guidelines with operational/legal implications. Having influence is not the same as regulating, and so Harald's characterisation here is quite right too. There's no ambiguity. The IETF cannot prevent things from happening even if does go to great lengths to state considered, expert, technical opinions. cheers, gja -- Grenville Armitage http://caia.swin.edu.au I come from a LAN downunder.