Harald, HTA> you are talking about actions that could be taken by all the actors in the HTA> system. I was talking about the actions that the WG could take on its own. THe original discussion was about problems with IESG-related actions. Your introduction of a derivative thread about actions the WG might take was cast as there being "no excuse" for their not taking those actions. Since the focus had been on problems due to IESG-related barriers that were viewed as frankly inappropriate, directing the focus over to the WG is a distraction. (Note that, alas, it has at least had that effect.) HTA> - A gatekeeper group is imposing a requirement that must be fulfilled HTA> before the document can be published. HTA> - The working group feels that this requirement is unreasonable. HTA> Now, assume that both parties are acting in good faith, both parties are HTA> reasonably competent at their work, and that both parties are interested in HTA> seeing the document published. Sorry, no. With respect to the situation that I have twice described very carefully, the imposed requirements are not reasonable and not "competent". Let's remember that competence relates to specific skill-sets. The skill-set at issue here is one of working group oversight. The problems being discussed are/were about difficulties in IESG administration/oversight of WGs. There needs to be equivalent focus about problems with WG chair management, WG participant actions, and even IETF-wide participation in review, etc. of working group. But we will not make progress if any attempt to focus on a specific component of this system results in defensiveness or a redirection of focus. So, sorry, but no we cannot assert that the AD in the hypothetical was acting competently, with respect to WG management. Please review the description of the circumstances that I described. I repeat: they were carefully cast, and they DO occur in the IETF. Therefore, the rest of your latest response to me pertains to some independent sub-thread of all this. I have no comment on it, because I would rather get some discussion of one thread at a time, rather than jumping around. d/ -- Dave Crocker <mailto:dcrocker@brandenburg.com> Brandenburg InternetWorking <http://www.brandenburg.com> Sunnyvale, CA USA <tel:+1.408.246.8253>, <fax:+1.866.358.5301>