Tony, TH> I agree with the idea of a BOF, but 'anti-spam' is the wrong focus. Spam TH> is a social problem, not an engineering one. I contend that is why we TH> already have a research group dealing with it (social problems are TH> inherently difficult for engineers, thus requiring research to figure TH> out). Focus the group on a tangible engineering problem, deployable TH> authenticated email. Or as Vixie labeled the more generic, interpersonal TH> batch communication system. The example of theft vs. locks provides a good perspective on both the truth of your observation and the necessity that we take (appropriate) action. The key insight that comes from saying "social problem" is not that we should do nothing, but that we need to have a shared agreement on the details of the problem and the level of protection required. And we need to respond to it with appropriate, but limited, changes. We are all quite comfortable making a distinction between the protection needed for a home vs. protection for a facility holding a nuclear bomb. We even are reasonably comfortable distinguishing what is needed for a home in a idyllic "safe" environment versus one in a strife-torn hell-hole. No one believes that a house lock keeps out all intruders, and indeed some do get in. But we *do* believe that house locks reduce the threat to a socially acceptable level. We have no such clarity or consensus about spam. Worse, we *all* are seriously ignorant about solutions. Anyone who says that they know the magic fix is blowing smoke. First of all, there is not yet any existence proof for the reduction of spam. Some interventions have reduced some aspects of spam, but the total size of the beast has only been growing, and rapidly. There is a key lesson here and it is mostly missed. The lesson is that spammers are adaptable and -- as is true for all security threats -- raising the bar keeps out the riff-raff but the truly serious attackers will develop a different technique. In the case of spam, those serious attackers have disproportionate leverage, because their software can be used by less-serious drones. More importantly, by saying "social problem" we are correctly implying social *complexity*. Messaging touches core aspects of social processes. No one knows how to "engineer" one property of a complex social process without accidentally impacting others. And they key import of the word "accidentally" is that these unintended consequences are typically undesired. This does not mean we should do nothing. Nor does it mean that there should be no technical interventions. It *does* mean that we need to treat this as an incremental systems change process. It *does* mean that we will need multiple types of changes, not just one cure-all. It *does* mean that we should approach those changes very cautiously, even experimentally. The place to start is with a modest, objective, operationalizable definition of the thing we all agree needs to be handled differently. So, let's not worry about the all-encompassing definition of spam. Let's just -- hah! "just" he said -- target a single type of spam that is massive and is massively offensive. My personal favorite definition, these days, is Unsolicited Bulk Mail (UBE) ("Commercial" is too constrained, for me. I do not care whether the message asks me for money, my vote, my religious affiliation, or simply wants to share a bit of personal silliness with me. In other words, the detail of the content is irrelevant to me. It does not even need to be soliciting.) Not all unsolicited mail is bad. Not all bulk mail is bad. But the combination is universally reviled. So we then need to define unsolicited properly. We must make sure to permit me to make contact with someone for the first time. Not all cold calls are bad; in fact they are essential to many desirable aspects of social intercourse. We need to make sure that we define "permission" properly -- as a kind of opposite to unsolicited -- and so we can then enjoy wonderful debates about details such as double opt-in. And so on. Still, I think the question of "unsolicited" is well-enough understood to make it possible to get community rough consensus on a technical definition that the engineering community can work with. And we need to define bulk properly. This will be difficult. If I send an unsolicited message to 2 people, does it qualify? What about 10 people, 100, 1000? Why? Why not? The problem, here, is that I believe the qualifier "bulk" captures an essential aspect of the problematic mail, so we can't simply drop the term or say "anything greater than one". Worse, the instant we choose a number, the spammers will simply send batches that are one addressee fewer than that maximum. For that matter, the number of addressees per message might not be a useful attribute, as marketeers have become good at tailoring content to individual recipients, thereby producing one addressee per message. So "bulk" requires considering behavior across multiple postings. Oh boy... And that's why this is a research topic, no matter how essential it is to to engineer some mechanisms sooner rather than latter. Let's do the engineering and deployment, and let's do it quickly, but let's appreciate that it is really research. d/ -- Dave Crocker <mailto:dcrocker@brandenburg.com> Brandenburg InternetWorking <http://www.brandenburg.com> Sunnyvale, CA USA <tel:+1.408.246.8253>, <fax:+1.866.358.5301>