Hi, vint.c> where are these statistics from - I cannot believe that vint.c> more than a few percent of the net uses non-USG root. >> joe.b> The last poll I conducted on the dns showed at least 5%. joe.b> But that was a few years ago. The 30% comes from various joe.b> discussions we had concerning new.net. >> pekka.s> I don't think any source related to new.net regarding pekka.s> this can be treated as reliable. >> valdis> It's called "Snake Oil", Joe.... Hmmmm? At the risk of feeding a diversionary thread, it does seem appropriate to address the question of the number of Internet users who can "see" New.net's domain names. First, Vint is technically correct regarding non-USG roots. I can't speak to other "roots", but most Internet users who can see/access New.net domains do so either (a) via recursives that rely on USG-root but augment with NN domains, or (b) user machines that have the NN client plugin (which still relies on the USG-root). So, New.net does not contribute significantly to the use of a non-USG root. But, this is clearly a technical minutia that will, no doubt, result in the usual excessive amount of debate! As to the number of users: Yes, the number published on the New.net website (~150M users) is an estimate that we believe to be correct, and an explanation of how it is derived is publicly available on the New.net website. I have included the text of this discussion at the end of this message. For what it's worth, I questioned these numbers when I arrived at New.net and we are in the process of auditing them. Initial findings reveal some factors that will increase the number and some factors that will decrease it. I don't know exactly where it will "net out" (no pun intended), but I am confident that the number is not off by an order of magnitude (as many nay-sayers might suggest). With the exception of the user base(s) from New.net's larger ISP partners, it should not be a surprise that much of the underlying information is not publicly available. As is common in many businesses, we are working with PriceWaterhouseCoopers on a proposal to audit and certify the output of our methodology as well as the underlying data. As New.net continues to grow, this should provide additional confidence in the user numbers and still provide protection for sensitive information (both our own information and that of our partners that is under NDA). The initiative with PWC is just getting off the ground; I expect these wheels will take several weeks to run their course. If you're interested, I'm certain the final report will be announced on the New.net website. Any of you who have measured/estimated any aspect of a system that is as large or as dynamic as the Internet, know well that there is considerable complexity behind any of these numbers (which involves an understanding of the scope, measurement assumptions, etc). Hence, it is somewhat surprising to see the random "pot shots" taken on this list, with little substantiation for the doubts (other than typical conspiracy theories and knee jerk reaction to New.net in general). In reality, I believe you would be hard pressed to find any statistic regarding the number of users on (or their usage of) the Internet that is significantly more accurate than the numbers New.net provides about its user base. Again, like most marketing statistics about such a broad measure of the Internet, we could engage in considerable academic debate about the best way to measure it -- I'll be glad to do so over beers when I next run into you. In the meantime, I am hopeful our audited numbers will be available sooner rather than later. Please feel free to contact me about any technical issues you may have regarding New.net. Regards, Steve Hotz, CTO New.net Here is information about user count available as a link from the New.net home page ... New.net bases its estimate of total users with access on two numbers: 1) the number of ISP accounts with access as reported by New.net activated ISP partners (for free ISP partners, New.net uses the ISP’s reported 30 day active number); and 2) users who can access New.net domain name extensions because they have activated their browsers by downloading our plug-in. These raw numbers, which represent either ISP accounts or PCs with access, are adjusted to reflect a conservative estimate of the actual number of people accessing the Internet via these sources. In the case of ISP accounts the number is adjusted based on information from the Department of Commerce study Falling Through the Net: Toward Digital Inclusion, A Report on Americans’ Access to Technology Tools and other sources which estimate 2.1 users per household. For our calculation we conservatively assume all ISP accounts are residential accounts despite the fact that in reality many accounts are corporate accounts with much higher numbers of users per account. In the case of client downloads in the US, the number is also adjusted based upon information from the same Department of Commerce study, but only by a factor of 1.5 to account for the likelihood that some people are using these PCs from work only and therefore have a lower average number of users per PC. For clients downloaded outside the U.S. there is no adjustment made due to lack of any reliable information for our international markets despite the fact that one could assume much higher use per computer numbers. Finally, the number is also reduced to account for the likelihood that some of the users who download our plug-in access the Internet via an ISP that already recognizes New.net domain names.