[ lots of stuff deleted that was designed to distract... ] > But I wish that those proponents of a Jabber WG would understand that some > of us in the SIP community have some real concerns about the effect or > perceptions in the marketplace that chartering this work in the IETF might > have. They are real and probably cloud our thinking ..but simply dismissing > them as irrelevant or stupid is not going to help gain consensus on > chartering this work. richard - whether simple succeeds or fails will have nothing to do with whether the ietf helps out the jabber folks. each will succeed or fail on their own merits. i am at a loss to understand the extraordinary amount of fear and loathing from the simple camp that i witnessed in the jabber bof. i could be more unkind here, but i'm making an extraordinary effort to be inoffensive. regardless, there are numerous precedents to invalidate your position that we can work on only one. the most obvious is cpim, which explicitly acknowledges the existence of many. however, if you insist that there can be only one, then perhaps the logical thing to do is for the iesg to put eveything on hold while we do a detailed analysis of the technical merits of the various approaches. oh, wait, we already did that, and the result was that we did cpim. go back two paragraphs. for myself, i think that the simple folks would be much better served by focusing on their work product than on political posturing. /mtr