everyone-- I know this is a frequent source of heated discussion, and that much has already been said that doesn't need to be repeated here, but I *just* *can't* *let* *this* *go* unchallenged. ----- On Tuesday, March 19, 2002, at 08:26 AM, Keith Moore wrote: > [...] > in a just world, the NAT vendors would all be sued out of existence > for the harm they've done to the Internet. in the real world, if you > can hire a famous personality to advertise your product on TV, > then by definition it must work well. > [...] The harm done to the growth potential of the Internet by the widespread deployment of NAT routers is not the fault of the people who make them. That there is a profitable business to be made in selling NAT appliances to non-technical Internet users is *not* the root cause of the problem. It's a symptom, and I think the IETF would do very well to think long and hard about how to solve the real problem illustrated by the ubiquity of NAT routers in residential settings: strategic opposition to the end-to-end architecture among large retail Internet service providers. The first thing I would suggest is to sit back and contemplate whether the situation bears any resemblance to other problems in which the user population engages in behavior that results in short-term personal benefit in exchange for long-term harm to the welfare of society. In fairness, I should disclose that I am currently employed by a company that sells-- among other fine products-- a home gateway appliance with a NAT routing function; also, my responsibilities include integrating the library of ALG implementations it offers. So, yes-- I've been having this debate with myself for years. I very much wish there were a profitable business to be made selling home gateway appliances with IPv6 and 6to4 support, but I also very much wish that Afghan farmers could make a living growing wheat instead of opium. Sadly-- there is not much business to be made that way today, and whether there will be a thriving business there in the near future remains a very open question. -- j h woodyatt <jhw@wetware.com>