On Thu, 07 Jun 2001, Sven Neumann wrote: > Peter <peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes: >> Can GIMP be started with all the windows grouped the way I want? >> [... lots of complains deleted] > > Your problem is basically that your window manager sucks. If working > on Unix using a decent window manager, you can use a separate virtual > desktop for Gimp, your taskbar is able to group gimp windows, gimp > will remember the positions of the dialogs and reopens them where you > left and so on ... > > I suggest someone sits down and writes a decent window manager for > Win32 since we do not want to duplicate the WM functionality in the > Gimp application.
Hmmm... This is not as simple as you describe. Actually, the Windows way (using MDI and stuff like that) is not very different from the workspaces or virtual desktops that are provided by many WMs in X. These are two slightly different solutions to the same problem (grouping windows belonging to the same application - or windows that are related to some specific task).
- In X, the solution has been implemented at the WM+user level: the applications create lots of independent windows, and the WM provides several workspaces in which the user can keep these windows together.
- In Windows, the solution has been implemented in the libraries that can be used by all applications and in the built-in WM: there is a set of functions for generating MDI interfaces, and the applications that want to use this system can have their sub-windows managed inside a big top-level window.
In the end, the effect is very similar: things that belong together can exist in their own environment (workspace or top-level window) and the user does not accidentally click on a window that is in the background and belongs to another application. The X solution is more flexible because the user can choose how the windows are grouped (e.g., having several applications on the same workspace, or the windows of a single application spread over several workspaces) instead of having this choice made for them by the application developers, but on the other hand the Windows solution is easier to use for many users (not for experienced users, though).
So there is a general problem with many X applications that are ported to Windows. Since most of the Windows applications use the solution that is already provided by the system (multiple windows in one big window), there is no need to use a WM that provides several workspaces. It is therefore natural for the users of these ported applications to criticize the developers for not using the facilities that are provided by Windows. Sure, a WM providing several workspaces could help the Windows users, but why should they be forced to use this because of only one application that does not behave like all others? Note that such WMs exist (for example, "Zones") but they are mostly used by those who have to run many X applications under Windows. Most other users would rather complain to the developers and suggest to use an MDI interface.
I don't think that the debate is going to end soon because both systems have pros and cons. Maybe the best solution would be to integrate an MDI option in the Windows port of GTK? Then each GTK application ported to Windows could run with all its windows grouped inside a top-level window, if the user likes this option. Note that doing this only in the Windows port would simplify some problems that are hard to solve in X, such as how to emulate the look and feel of the WM, since the choices under Windows are rather limited.
Hmmm... Maybe I should re-post this as an article on Advogato?
> To make you happy a little, I want to let you know that the current > CVS version of Gimp adds the possibility to keep most dialogs in a > dock and it does this much better than that product from Adobe that > we are often compared too.
Yes, this is a very nice improvement.
-Raphael
