On Wed, 2005-20-04 at 13:31 -0400, Paul Iadonisi wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:52 -0600, Guy Fraser wrote: > > [snip] > > Because I note a hint of willingness here, I'll respond again. > > > 1) If I spend the time to test GRUB on FC4t2, and discover the > > same problems still exist, that I have seen before and can not > > resolve the issue using the wonderful info documentation, are > > you saying you would then consider LILO to be needed. > > That is not the nature of testing. Though if it were up to me, I > personally would not rule out re-including lilo, you're leaving out a > few important steps, here. > If you discover the same problems still exist and you can't resolve > them with the documentation you need to: > > a) Define what 'same problems' you are talking about. This may mean > chipset information, mobo info, drive types (IDE, PATA, SATA, SCSI), > drive arrangement (primary master, secondary slave, scsi id 0, etc.), > and other pertinent information (software raid info with config files). > You may not need to post this much detail to the list, but save it for > a possible, future bugzilla entry. > b) See if someone on the list can help. If the problem is solved with > someone's help from the list, then it's probably a documentation bug and > should be filed as such. > c) Monitor any bugs you file (the default in Red Hat's bugzilla is to send > you mail when it's updated) in particular for requests for more information > or a request to check out a particular update on your specific setup. An > all important goal here is assist developers in reproducing the problem > on their own hardware if at all possible. You do realize that while doing all these tests I will not be able to use my machine for anything else. > > And keep this feedback loop going, minus the 'grub sucks, lilo rules' > rants. We know where you stand on that...no need to muddy up the > bugzilla database with it. > > The point is, if you're going to help test grub, at least make an > attempt to help developers fix it. If you instantly want Red Hat to > abandon the idea of eliminating lilo as soon as you find a reproducible > bug in grub, then that's not much help. Well, you can 'want' it, but > don't give up on helping to fix grub in the meantime. I do not suggest abandoning GRUB, it works well for many people. > > > 2) One of the problems with the documentation may be that it > > requires pinfo. If the documentation was put in HTML format > > it would be *MUCH* easier to use. I have heard many people > > who find pinfo very difficult to use, and prefer to avoid > > info documentation all together. I don't care for it myself > > but can use it, when necessary. > > +1 > > Don't even get me going on info files. It's just...twisted. I am not sure I understand that comment. Were you suggesting that you don't care for info documentation either? > > > 3) What can you do about getting LILO reinstated if it can be > > demonstrated that it will work in situations where GRUB will > > not. > > See above. I will only see the justification for that if I start > seeing specific bug numbers with specific controller model numbers and > specific drive arrangements and a clear description of the technical > problem. And even then, only if the problem can't be fixed in time > before, say the next test release? Remember, though, you don't need to > wait until then to test a fix, provided an updated boot.iso and > *stage*img files are put out with the new grub embeded. Or maybe only > the updated rpm in the rawhide is necessary -- I'm not sure how anaconda > works regarding that. Either way, test, test, test ... and include any > updates that show up in rawhide in that testing. I would rather not install anything from Rawhide, I have been badly bitten by it in the past. I am willing to help, but I am not willing to loose all the data I have to do it. I am also not comfortable having to be without a bootable machine for more than a week. RH should have the resources to provide the developers with a ATA133 and SATA controller card along with some drives to test with. Not all QA should be the burden of the Fedora test community. I may even consider donating the ATA133 and SATA controllers, since I will need at least one new SATA drive to do these tests. Once the tests are over I will want to use all the drives, and will need another SATA controller because I will then have 5 SATA drives. All along I have not been attempting to get rid of GRUB, I have just wanted to be able to reliably use my machine, without having to re-install whenever I add or remove a non-boot drive. > > > -- > -Paul Iadonisi > Senior System Administrator > Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist > Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. > GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets