=========================================== #fedora-meeting: proventesters (2011-10-05) =========================================== Meeting started by nirik at 18:00:01 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2011-10-05/proventesters.2011-10-05-18.00.log.html Meeting summary --------------- * Intro/Gather more agenda (nirik, 18:00:15) * LINK: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Proven_tester#Joining_the_proven_testers (nirik, 18:01:53) * Recruitment (nirik, 18:05:35) * LINK: https://picasaweb.google.com/103451550643082159750/B#5576235128261512338 <--- I doodled up a t-shirt idea a while back (maxamillion, 18:08:01) * IDEA: short term here: mine existing karma for non proventesters and ask them to join, more press (blog posts, point people on test list), and look at f-e-k improvements (nirik, 18:24:17) * IDEA: longer term: gui for f-e-k and having pk or something like it offer updates-testing (nirik, 18:24:26) * IDEA: longer term: tie into abrt (nirik, 18:24:33) * One stop page for updates testing resources (nirik, 18:25:26) * will try and create a package updates tester page with links to resources. (nirik, 18:29:44) * Pending updates (nirik, 18:31:39) * 11 critpath updates pending in f14 (nirik, 18:35:41) * 19 critpath updates pending in f15 (nirik, 18:35:49) * Open Floor (nirik, 18:35:56) Meeting ended at 19:00:41 UTC. Action Items ------------ Action Items, by person ----------------------- * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * nirik (95) * tflink (30) * maxamillion (18) * mike-c (12) * Cerlyn (8) * abadger1999 (7) * Southern_Gentlem (4) * satellit_ (4) * zodbot (3) * jwb (2) -- 18:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting proventesters (2011-10-05) 18:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 5 18:00:01 2011 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname proventesters 18:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'proventesters' 18:00:15 <nirik> #topic Intro/Gather more agenda 18:00:23 <nirik> any folks around for a proventesters meetup? 18:00:31 * satellit_ listening 18:00:38 <jwb> decided to show up to figure out how to become one 18:01:25 <nirik> jwb: cool. ;) it's easy. 18:01:35 * tflink is around 18:01:53 <nirik> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Proven_tester#Joining_the_proven_testers 18:02:16 <nirik> basically apply, read the docs as to what you are supposed to do, get approved 18:02:28 * maxamillion is here-ish 18:02:57 <jwb> nirik, thx 18:03:30 <nirik> I had 2 items on my plan... recruitment ideas, and one stop shopping page for resources... did any other folks have items? 18:03:44 <tflink> nothing here 18:04:12 <maxamillion> none here 18:04:15 * nirik will wait a min more for folks. 18:04:19 <maxamillion> rgr 18:05:26 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead then... 18:05:35 <nirik> #topic Recruitment 18:05:57 <nirik> so, any ideas on how we can get more proventesters involved? and/or more testers for updates in general? 18:06:37 <nirik> I had a few random ideas: 18:06:44 <tflink> I forget, do we have any step-by-step instructions for installing updates-testing and giving karma? 18:06:53 <nirik> could we mine old updates for people who have given lots of karma but are not proventesters? 18:06:55 <maxamillion> I've actually thought about this in the past ... I think maybe getting a little funding to offer swag of some sort would be good ... like a "Fedora QA Community Member" t-shirt or something (likely a less expensive option to start out with) 18:06:58 * tflink will wait for nirik's ideas before giving mine 18:07:31 <nirik> well, all we have currently is http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Proven_tester 18:07:40 <nirik> which lists some things, but not sure in how much detail. 18:07:44 <tflink> I remember an interesting conversation about metrics and their human effect 18:08:00 <nirik> I really think most of it is that people don't know how easy it is to become a proventester 18:08:01 <maxamillion> https://picasaweb.google.com/103451550643082159750/B#5576235128261512338 <--- I doodled up a t-shirt idea a while back 18:08:09 <tflink> as soon as there is some sort of reward for doing X based on measurement Y, people will generally start behaving differently 18:08:20 <nirik> maxamillion: that would be cool. dunno if we have funds for such a thing tho 18:08:22 <maxamillion> tflink: well ... true 18:08:25 <maxamillion> nirik: yeah 18:08:25 <tflink> nirik: yeah, and how much they're needed 18:09:03 <nirik> ideally, everyone who provides karma on any kind of regular basis should take the few minutes to become a proventester, IMHO. 18:09:54 <tflink> I wonder if stuff like step by step instructions would help 18:10:00 <tflink> maybe screencasts, too? 18:10:14 <tflink> the other two things that I can think of are: 18:10:25 <tflink> people worried about borking their system and losing data/time 18:10:46 <tflink> make f-e-k a little more user friendly 18:11:12 <tflink> I've thought about trying to make a gui for f-e-k before 18:11:38 <nirik> I'm not sure how active the developer is these days... but he was around not long back 18:11:40 <tflink> to make it easier to find test cases, related packages and skip over stuff that you don't feel right karma-izing 18:12:05 <tflink> I'd be interested in doing it but the issue is available time 18:12:13 <nirik> yeah. 18:12:57 <tflink> is it something that we really think would help? 18:13:04 <nirik> also, folks providing feedback on list could be pointed at becoming proventesters... 18:13:38 <Cerlyn> Would a GUI avoid the "skip" confusion? Or can that be solved at the command line? 18:13:49 <nirik> not sure. I think a bigger win might be to setup something so PK would say "hey, there's an update of foo you have installed in updates-testing, would you like to test it?" 18:14:01 <tflink> just leaving karma would be a start, not even becoming a proven tester 18:14:21 <maxamillion> nirik: that's a cool idea 18:14:34 <tflink> nirik: yeah, that would be good. Give a list of testing updates available and let the user select which ones 18:14:40 <nirik> it's been floated many times before, but has noone working on it. ;) 18:14:41 <tflink> to install 18:14:55 <nirik> a yum plugin might be easier. ;) 18:15:55 <nirik> I don't think there's a magic bullet... 18:15:58 <Cerlyn> More precisely needed is a way to identify which packages a user actually used and for libraries, how they got there 18:16:07 <Cerlyn> A lot of packages are installed by default I would never use 18:16:27 <nirik> Cerlyn: yeah, sometimes its a bit of a puzzle... 18:16:37 <tflink> and updated libraries that come down and I have no idea what they do 18:16:39 <nirik> libfoo is an update. What the heck do I use libfoo for? 18:16:49 * tflink was wondering if a dependency tree + description might help 18:17:14 <tflink> appbar -> libbar -> libfoo (appbar does magical stuff) 18:17:19 <nirik> yeah, it does give summary now, but tree would be nice. 18:17:39 <nirik> not sure how hard that would be to implement. 18:17:52 <Cerlyn> It also makes no sense to tell me about a new ATI Xorg driver is available, but I have nvidia/Intel/unknown-to-me instead. Saying video still works could be useless. 18:17:56 <tflink> me neither, I've never even looked @ f-e-k code 18:18:29 <nirik> Cerlyn: yeah, all the x drivers are installed by default, since they are small and you could move your install to another box and want it to work. 18:18:44 <nirik> but it means you have a number that aren't actually in use. 18:20:15 <nirik> so, I think short term here: mine existing karma for non proventesters and ask them to join, more press (blog posts, point people on test list), and look at f-e-k improvements? 18:21:10 <tflink> yeah 18:21:42 <nirik> longer term: gui for f-e-k and having pk or something like it offer updates-testing 18:21:50 <nirik> another idea was tie it into abrt. ;) 18:22:09 <nirik> foo has just crashed and you reported a bug on it... but foo has a updates-testing update, would you like to test? 18:22:28 <tflink> that's a cool idea 18:24:17 <nirik> #idea short term here: mine existing karma for non proventesters and ask them to join, more press (blog posts, point people on test list), and look at f-e-k improvements 18:24:26 <nirik> #idea longer term: gui for f-e-k and having pk or something like it offer updates-testing 18:24:33 <nirik> #idea longer term: tie into abrt 18:24:40 <nirik> anything more on this? or shall we move on? 18:25:26 <nirik> #topic One stop page for updates testing resources 18:25:41 <nirik> Another idea I had was to try and create a short page with all the resources. 18:25:47 <nirik> we have stuff all over the place now. 18:25:50 <maxamillion> that's probably a good one 18:25:58 <maxamillion> I thought we had that at one point ... or atleast a mockup of one 18:26:00 <tflink> yeah, especially for the short term 18:26:01 <maxamillion> on the wiki somewhere 18:26:04 <nirik> bodhi, fedora-easy-karma, rss feeds, reports to mailing lists, etc 18:26:51 <nirik> would anyone be able to put in some time to make one? ;) 18:27:01 <nirik> I could help out, but not sure how much time I have to devote to it. 18:27:48 <nirik> I can try and make something tho.. or ask on the list. ;) 18:28:10 <maxamillion> oh ... like all in wonder page for QA efforts, that's different than what I had in mind but I like it 18:28:46 <nirik> one of the complaints has been that it's hard to see all the stuff you need... 18:28:57 <nirik> if we can get all the links in one place it might help 18:29:18 <tflink> yeah 18:29:19 <maxamillion> yeah 18:29:40 <maxamillion> and for long term, see if we can't get some of that stuff merged into bits of the revamp to fedora community? 18:29:44 <nirik> #info will try and create a package updates tester page with links to resources. 18:30:03 <nirik> maxamillion: possibly. Not sure if thats a focus for it, but it could be nice for that. 18:30:56 <tflink> lets figure out what's really being used before trying to integrate it :) 18:31:08 <tflink> or what would be the most useful 18:31:10 <nirik> fair enough 18:31:23 <maxamillion> rgr 18:31:39 <nirik> #topic Pending updates 18:32:00 <nirik> so, did we want to try and look at the updates pending in 15/14 currently and see if we could move along the ancient ones? 18:32:06 <nirik> or is that better done out of the meeting? 18:32:53 <nirik> 11 critpath ones in f14 18:33:12 <nirik> 19 in f15 18:33:53 <nirik> some of them are ancient due to almost no one having the hardware. 18:34:00 <nirik> some are just unclear how to test. 18:35:30 <nirik> I'm hoping to have an old laptop setup to help test 14/15 soon... 18:35:41 <nirik> #info 11 critpath updates pending in f14 18:35:49 <nirik> #info 19 critpath updates pending in f15 18:35:56 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 18:36:01 <nirik> ok, anything for open floor? 18:36:15 <nirik> should we continue meeting? or does it seem to be doing any good? 18:36:37 <mike-c> nirik: I came in late - so trying to get the gist of the discussion... 18:36:44 <satellit_> would there be a limited proventester category for testers who mainly do installs to Hardware? 18:36:59 <nirik> mike-c: basically we are trying to increase updates-testing package testing. ;) 18:37:07 <tflink> satellit_: what would the benefit of that be? 18:37:37 <nirik> mike-c: get more proventesters, or general testers involved so packages don't get stuck in updates-testing. 18:37:37 <satellit_> I am not sure I have the skills to do some of the other kinds of testing.... 18:38:00 <mike-c> Any value in asking testers what main kinds of testing and which versions of Fedora they are mainly doing? 18:38:30 <nirik> satellit_: then just don't add karma where you don't feel you have tested enough... ;) 18:38:34 <Southern_Gentlem> satellit_, if you are running a vm to test a package that is good as well 18:38:37 <satellit_> ok 18:38:49 <nirik> mike-c: well, not sure... we want more people particularly for the older releases... 18:38:57 <Southern_Gentlem> i am running f14 so i do test f14 native and f15 in a vm 18:39:49 <mike-c> For example I am very keen to test kernels, nouveau and similar, as well as mail server and similar but also test other things where I can - mainly f16 currently with a little f15 18:40:16 <Southern_Gentlem> thats why i think a proven-testers mailing list that on monday and thursday spam with a list that needs tested would be great 18:40:27 <nirik> in general I think we have more testers on newer releases... fedora is so fast moving, most of the folks involved tend to want to move fast with it. 18:40:58 * nirik has a f14 and f15 vms, and a bunch of f15 machines and a few f16 machines where I do most of my testing. 18:41:31 <mike-c> Makes sense if testers do run older versions as servers and where stability is essential but newer versions where they want to test upcoming performance? 18:42:23 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: would a web page with links to the current stuff meet your needs? 18:42:34 <nirik> mike-c: yeah, I think some of that is happening. 18:43:13 <mike-c> Southern_Gentlem: I am happy with being spammed on the test list with the list of packages that need testing with one spam shot per fedora version.... 18:44:22 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: I floated the idea of another list last week, and the reaction was pretty negative on the test list. Do chime in there if you like... 18:45:43 <mike-c> I guess also that for most people availability to run tests varies in time depending on other commitments... for example I do try to join the graphics test days but can't always be free then - similarly during the normal cycle of listed packages for test from the announcements on the list 18:46:48 <nirik> yeah, absoutely. 18:47:13 <nirik> I tend to run fedora-easy-karma once a week or so to collect all the feedback from using the machine... 18:47:22 <nirik> or more often if there's a specific update that needs testing 18:47:26 <mike-c> Would there be any value in asking people who join proventester what their main interest is i.e. testing packages for released N, N and N-1, N and N+1 etc so you could have a list of what the pool of testers are likely to be doing? 18:47:31 <Southern_Gentlem> mike thats why i think another list would be good thing 18:48:12 <nirik> mike-c: well, I'm not sure how that helps us... I guess we would know more who we have out there, but it doesn't help us grow or provide better coverage... 18:49:38 <mike-c> I guess - it would be nice to have a balanced division of effort - though I know that is why this discussion is happening! At the moment it is pot luck what gets tested in any given period... 18:50:03 <Cerlyn> It probably wouldn't be too hard to push a survey to everyone already in the group as well 18:50:13 <nirik> sure, but we can't easily say: 'hey, you, go test f14' (well, we could, but they could say 'no, I don't care about f14') 18:51:30 <mike-c> Sure - testing is dependent on voluntary effort - and there have been several attempts to encourage testers to do things - Adam Will occasionally makes a specific request to the test list 18:51:56 <nirik> yeah, although those are almost always for fN-branched. 18:52:08 <nirik> occasionally a maintainer will ask for testing... 18:52:13 <mike-c> I guess that it only needs one or two people to test any one package so provided the pool of testers is reasonable it "should" work! 18:52:35 <nirik> I guess this is related to another idea I read somewhere (can't recall where): 18:52:58 <nirik> revive the 'qa-contact' field for packages... so people could sign up for specific packages. 18:53:29 <nirik> pkgdb has a 'Initial qa contact' field... which I don't think we currently use for anything. 18:54:00 <mike-c> Interesting! That may well work for some testers who have specific interests and do test the ones they have a specific love for on a regular basis - perhaps across several fN 18:54:07 <maxamillion> nirik: should qa-contact tag everyone in proventesters for all critpath packages? 18:54:28 <nirik> well, I am not sure what actual effect it has. It might be cc'ed on all bugs only. 18:54:29 <maxamillion> or just divvy it up accordingly? 18:54:34 <maxamillion> rgr 18:54:35 <nirik> abadger1999: you happen to be around? 18:54:42 <abadger1999> nirik: yep 18:54:52 <abadger1999> qa-contact is for bugzilla 18:54:57 <abadger1999> per-package 18:55:09 <abadger1999> takes a single fas username 18:55:26 <nirik> ok, so thats not any different than inital cc really? 18:55:32 <abadger1999> yeah 18:55:42 <abadger1999> Just a different field in bugzilla 18:55:52 <abadger1999> (qa contact field instead of CC field) 18:56:11 <Cerlyn> I think it has some purpose if Bugzilla is setup to use a test-in-build style of operation 18:56:37 <mike-c> Perhaps it could be offered for testers to sign up on the bz to "take" the "qa-contact" field? 18:56:40 <nirik> we could perhaps co-opt it some in bodhi to send those people info about updates to that package I guess. 18:56:46 <Cerlyn> I had another idea - could Bodhi notify people who tested the last N versions of a package and gave non-zero karma points that a new one has been released? 18:56:54 <nirik> but I think it's going to require more thought/design. 18:58:11 <Cerlyn> (The QA contact role has its own set of email preferences for users in bugzilla) 18:58:35 <nirik> Cerlyn: we could, but I bet people would complain. 18:59:19 <nirik> ok, we are running low on time. 18:59:36 <nirik> any last minute items? do folks want to try and meet next week? 19:00:31 <nirik> lets continue on list... 19:00:38 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone! 19:00:41 <nirik> #endmeeting
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