On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 09:28 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > However even some Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this. As I said before, ignore the evangelical fanboys. ;) > I like the idea of spreading the word about fedora in the daily life > of all humans. Because I personally don't like windows users to > consider ubuntu = linux, as that would underrate fedora contributors' > contribution. You mean like people used to (and still do) associate Red Hat = Linux? ;) Sorry, had to point out the obvious. > But direct competition (which is good or which is bad) isn't the right > way. I wish Linux advocates and users of all distros would put it out of the minds. Luckily most distribution contributors -- at least major, long lasting ones -- do. Because distros all work together, and stand on the shoulders of giants in the first place. On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 11:17 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > I'm going to go out on a limp here and say some stupid things; > Just maybe it's not about what others understand or how we could make > them understand "the Fedora way of life". Do you think they will treat it any different than "the Red Hat way of life" prior? I mean, I still have fellow Gentoo, Ubuntu, etc... users complaining about how "Red Hat Linux 5 broke everything" without stopping to understand the whole reason for switching to GLibC 2. And that's just the earliest one I can remember, there are plenty more popular ones that came after that! Ignore them. There are so many people talking about their "tragedies" of Red Hat Linux 5.0, Red Hat Linux 7, Red Hat Linux 9.0, Fedora Core 2 and Fedora Core 4 because they didn't stop to realize, "hey, there's a reason you don't always adopt 'the latest' if you want maximum compatibility." > Just like I said, I'm going to say some stupid things here; > I'm not convinced Fedora as a distribution has added value for > end-users. I'm sure I haven't seen it all, but then again, consider that > an end-user hasn't either. So? They go Ubuntu, which includes a commercial support option for home consumers. At least those consumers are served for what they want to pay for. > Sure it's neat and looks great and has this > huge pile of cutting-edge, stable software but that alone doesn't > distinguish Fedora in any particular way. Sure, it has also made, > (co-)developed and distributed items that one way or the other ended up > in other distributions as well. A crapload, yes. But so have select other companies. No, no other distributor has as much as Red Hat and its Fedora volunteers. But consumers don't look at that anyway. After all, just look at IBM. Most people assume IBM has contributed the most GPL code because they spent $1B on Linux, and then another $100M on Linux. It's part of the reason why many people outside of Linux believed (at least initially) that SCO's contract lawsuit (I'm talking the original March 2003 filing, not the subsequent expansion in May 2003 that caused Linus to change from calling it "a contract dispute" to "SCO's on crack") with IBM was about IBM "finally making Linux work." The former $1B was largely to get their virtualization and iron working (with a few notables, like Eclipse), the latter $100M was entirely to port the whole Notes suite and system to Linux -- a 100% proprietary application. So forget reaching those people. They are beyond reach, or will always see things in other ways even if you manage to sell them on some things at one point. > Most of the added value for Fedora IMHO is in the background; As a > developer and "community member" -which always is a vague term- I value > so much that Fedora is like an engineer's playground. Fedora adapts new > technologies, embraces them and (co-)develops them; Fedora releases > whatever it used to use to make up and build Fedora to the community > instead of having a limited number of key persons maintain it -the > core/extras merge is an example of that. There's other principle matters > that make the Fedora way of life my way of life -at least whenever I'm > behind a keyboard. The Fedora Project is the former Red Hat Linux community done right. Strategically controlled by Red Hat, but completely opened up development and release. Red Hat Linux was always the "engineer's playground" in many aspects (especially for ".0" releases), and relied on extensive community contribution. Now with Fedora, it's formalized and executed by the community -- with its strategic aspects still controlled by Red Hat. > Just consider it may be in the background too much for anyone installing > Fedora and navigating the desktop. If you consider that, I'll ask you again: > >From the end-user perspective, what is the added value of Fedora? I see your point, and I agree with it. At the same time, I'm not worried. > Should we make as much effort to convince anyone Fedora has added value > you don't necessarily immediately learn to appreciate as soon as you see > GDM pop up or navigate the menus? Can we state this in a way that makes > end-users appreciate it, and then not only appreciate it, but also adopt > Fedora instead of any other distribution? Most people won't realize what Fedora is until it's gone. But it won't be gone anytime soon, not with the funds Red Hat puts into it for its own endeavors. Which, unlike Ubuntu, have significantly higher profit margains, which allows Red Hat to employ so many GPL developers. So let Ubuntu have its focus, mindshare, etc... with consumers. If anything, Windows is a testament to the fact that _consumers_ should _not_ control core aspects of design in the OS -- especially "consumer attitudes" that then infiltrate _critical_ services. Hence why Red Hat and the Greater Fedora project fills this aspect quite nicely. ;) > BTW, /please/ don't make this a thread about how wrong I am or what I'm > missing here ;-) Although you may virtually kick me in the teeth about > whatever you think it is I'm absolutely wrong about, it's not what the > thread is about... yet. No, I know exactly what you are saying. And you are correct. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@xxxxxxxx http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
