Mar 25 20:00:00 <Sparks> Roll Call! Mar 25 20:00:00 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings Mar 25 20:00:08 * Sparks is here Mar 25 20:00:38 * jjmcd yo Mar 25 20:00:58 * n9986_ (n=nandeep@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:02:10 <Sparks> Where is everyone? Mar 25 20:02:42 * glezos is here Mar 25 20:03:14 <glezos> afk, but pingable Mar 25 20:03:17 * laubersm is here **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 25 20:07:20 2009 Mar 25 20:07:20 * Now talking on #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:07:20 * Topic for #fedora-meeting is: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings Mar 25 20:07:20 * Topic for #fedora-meeting set by Sparks at Wed Mar 25 19:59:50 2009 Mar 25 20:07:22 <ke4qqq> which one?? I only see beta release notes Mar 25 20:07:27 <ke4qqq> and f10 admin something Mar 25 20:07:34 <Sparks> Sorry about that, my computer went stupid. Mar 25 20:08:37 <Sparks> Let's start over again... :) Mar 25 20:08:42 <Sparks> Roll call! Mar 25 20:08:45 * Sparks is here (I think) Mar 25 20:08:46 * ke4qqq is here Mar 25 20:09:05 * jjmcd qrv Mar 25 20:09:10 * laubersm is here Mar 25 20:09:25 * stickster_afk is now known as stickster Mar 25 20:09:47 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement Mar 25 20:10:12 * ianweller rolls in Mar 25 20:10:23 <Sparks> Okay, there was a fairly good discussion on f-docs-l about how to author the Beta Announcement... Mar 25 20:10:27 <Sparks> and what should be in it... Mar 25 20:10:36 <Sparks> and how much detail to put into it... Mar 25 20:10:38 * mdomsch (n=mdomsch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:10:46 <Sparks> and who are target audience is. Mar 25 20:10:57 * ryanlerch (n=rlerch@nat/redhat/x-9e2fb1f14674b40d) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:11:11 <Sparks> Let's see if we can get those questions answered. Mar 25 20:11:17 * stickster shows up late -- sorry Mar 25 20:11:39 <Sparks> Does anyone have any concerns about how the Beta Announcement looks right now in Gobby (or on the wiki)? Mar 25 20:12:24 <Sparks> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement Mar 25 20:12:38 <jjmcd> last week we talked about three groups of no more than five bullets I see we have added some, I don't have a problem with that but are we all agreeing that more bullets is ok? Mar 25 20:12:47 <laubersm> I like it - though with the way the other discussions are going I wonder about making the link to the Beta Release Notes more prominent Mar 25 20:12:49 * ianweller takes a peek Mar 25 20:13:07 <stickster> The audience for the announcement falls into a couple groups Mar 25 20:13:17 <stickster> 1. community members and users, i.e. most likely testers Mar 25 20:13:31 <stickster> 2. journalists and web aggies Mar 25 20:13:56 * Sparks notes stickster has made a change in Gobby... Mar 25 20:14:26 * stickster changed the kimono thing, which always sounded silly-naughty as opposed to the more neutral car talk version Mar 25 20:14:49 <jjmcd> Kinda borrowed that from Icom's IC7800 announcement Mar 25 20:14:54 <Sparks> jjmcd: I don't like being held to an arbitrary standard (three groups of five bullets). Mar 25 20:15:07 <Sparks> jjmcd: If we have more to say or less to say then we should just say what we need to say. Mar 25 20:15:20 <ke4qqq> the gcc line doesn't make sense to me. Mar 25 20:15:30 <jjmcd> Yeah, well, that wasn't my recommendation, but I didn't want others to think it was too gangly Mar 25 20:15:58 <Sparks> ke4qqq: good catch Mar 25 20:16:20 <ke4qqq> there is at least a period missing Mar 25 20:16:40 <jjmcd> Well, that needs more prominence. C++ code is affected by the change Mar 25 20:16:58 <jjmcd> Some existing code will break Mar 25 20:17:10 <stickster> I just sent a bunch of stuff to the wrong channel... I'm such a dweeb. Mar 25 20:17:22 * stickster transcribes Mar 25 20:17:23 <stickster> One other thing that I am still on the fence about is the call-out of the Linux Format cover blurb. Mar 25 20:17:30 <stickster> The whole blurb, for those who haven't seen it, was "Fedora 10 kicks Ubuntu's ass." Mar 25 20:17:35 <stickster> Whether or not you tend to agree, I think calling that particular blurb out is skirting a troubled line. Mar 25 20:17:40 <stickster> We don't need to make someone else look worse for us to look good, I think. Mar 25 20:17:42 <jjmcd> We took out Ubuntu Mar 25 20:17:42 <ke4qqq> so utilizes doesn't carry the notion that it's been upgraded. Mar 25 20:17:50 <jjmcd> replaced it with ... Mar 25 20:18:01 <ke4qqq> stickster: +1 we don't care about Ubuntu Mar 25 20:18:12 <stickster> jjmcd: I realize that, but it's not going to be hard for people to trace the quote and then take that as us having a chip on our shoulder. Mar 25 20:18:15 <ke4qqq> and certainly don't want to call attentiont to them in our own release announcement. Mar 25 20:18:32 <jjmcd> Ahhh, yeah, prolly right. Mar 25 20:18:41 <stickster> From a marketing perspective, that's a total party foul. Mar 25 20:19:10 <jjmcd> would anyone bother? Mar 25 20:19:22 <quaid> yep Mar 25 20:19:24 * stickster doesn't want to test those waters. Mar 25 20:19:28 <ianweller> should we be using https for wiki urls? Mar 25 20:19:34 <jjmcd> Yeah, I see that Mar 25 20:19:37 <quaid> ianweller: I thought not? Mar 25 20:19:43 <jjmcd> ianweller I thought I caught those Mar 25 20:19:48 <quaid> or you mean to get the 'latest' without caching Mar 25 20:20:05 <ianweller> well it bothers people who are logged in but i guess if we're caching, then don't Mar 25 20:20:07 <stickster> Do people without a login get an annoying credentials input box if they use https://? Mar 25 20:20:22 <ke4qqq> no Mar 25 20:20:26 <jjmcd> No, I don't thnk so Mar 25 20:20:30 <ke4qqq> they just have to do the entire session thing Mar 25 20:20:33 <ke4qqq> with ssl Mar 25 20:20:39 <Sparks> and that's bad? Mar 25 20:20:39 <ke4qqq> which is more expensive for our infrastructure Mar 25 20:20:40 <stickster> Oh, that's no fun then. Mar 25 20:20:44 <ke4qqq> computationally Mar 25 20:20:48 <quaid> and we don't get the ncaching benefit Mar 25 20:20:56 <ke4qqq> right Mar 25 20:21:03 <stickster> Yeah, use http:// unless it's going to an audience you know is entirely (or almost entirely) credentialed Mar 25 20:21:09 <ke4qqq> that too Mar 25 20:21:11 <Sparks> +1 Mar 25 20:22:16 <stickster> One other issue that was raised by someone in Marketing -- apparently "Is a better OS than Fedora 10 even possible?" comes off as a very offensive statement in at least one other language Mar 25 20:22:20 <ke4qqq> I just pulled the kicks ass sentence out. flame me if you wish Mar 25 20:22:51 <quaid> stickster: huh, really? Mar 25 20:22:59 <Sparks> stickster: Really? I wonder what it translates to. Mar 25 20:23:11 <ke4qqq> stickster: I gotta admit if we aren't transliterating what is the evil inference? Mar 25 20:23:20 <ke4qqq> s/admit/ask Mar 25 20:23:25 <stickster> I think it's an idiomatic or cultural thing, as opposed to "when you translate this, it says 'I would like to date your teenage daughter.'" Mar 25 20:23:51 <stickster> What if we restated that in some way? Mar 25 20:24:19 <ke4qqq> How about - While a better OS is hard to imagine - Fp.o has made the beta of Fedora 11 for you to realize how good it is now Mar 25 20:24:19 <Sparks> Can you get any better than Fedora 10? Mar 25 20:24:21 <stickster> Like, "Users, sysadmins, and press agree -- Fedora 10 outdid itself in terms of <blah, blah, blah>" Mar 25 20:24:23 <ke4qqq> or something along those lines Mar 25 20:24:26 <stickster> Sparks: We'd better hope so Mar 25 20:24:32 <stickster> Oh, that was a suggestion, oops :-D Mar 25 20:24:38 <Sparks> stickster: Gees Mar 25 20:25:31 * radsy (n=scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:25:40 <Sparks> Ummm... Do we even have "JUICY QUOTE 1"? Mar 25 20:25:57 <ke4qqq> Sparks: we at least have Fedora 10 kicks ubuntus ass Mar 25 20:25:59 <quaid> +1 to reference the agreed sources that Fedora 10 rox'd Mar 25 20:26:03 <stickster> Sparks: Shouldn't be hard to find Mar 25 20:26:08 <stickster> We got great press coverage. Mar 25 20:26:11 <stickster> ke4qqq: :-D Mar 25 20:26:18 <Sparks> :) Mar 25 20:26:18 <laubersm> arg - give him a minute - he'll find one. :) Mar 25 20:26:32 <Sparks> laubersm: nice type on top of the page... :) Mar 25 20:27:04 <laubersm> did I get it all back out correctly? Mar 25 20:27:15 * mdomsch has quit ("Leaving") Mar 25 20:27:22 * laubersm has too many things and windows going on Mar 25 20:27:23 * Pikachu_2014 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Mar 25 20:27:40 <stickster> I'm looking up some press now, sorry, FF is slow Mar 25 20:27:46 <Sparks> laubersm: yeah... Mar 25 20:27:51 <stickster> by which I mean "Not instantaneously mind melding." Mar 25 20:28:11 <ke4qqq> cause of course you are using minefield in rawhide :) Mar 25 20:28:21 <Sparks> Is the bugzilla link supposed to be https://? Mar 25 20:28:28 <ianweller> Sparks: yes Mar 25 20:28:36 <Sparks> ianweller: TU Mar 25 20:28:37 <ianweller> it doesn't accept http:// connections and redirects to https anyway Mar 25 20:28:45 <ke4qqq> yeah http redirects to https Mar 25 20:29:02 <Sparks> laubersm: Don't like contractions? Mar 25 20:29:10 <quaid> nope Mar 25 20:29:14 <laubersm> nope Mar 25 20:29:23 <Sparks> sound clunky to my southern ear Mar 25 20:29:46 <ke4qqq> mine too Mar 25 20:29:46 <laubersm> they also do not always translate well - even if most translators know how to deal with them Mar 25 20:30:03 <ke4qqq> true Mar 25 20:30:04 <quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_General_Guidelines#Contractions Mar 25 20:30:10 <laubersm> that too Mar 25 20:30:40 <Sparks> quaid: Oh we can change that... it's in the wiki... Mar 25 20:30:55 <ke4qqq> P in project is capitalized right? Mar 25 20:31:10 <quaid> yes Mar 25 20:31:16 <quaid> the formal project name Mar 25 20:31:19 <ke4qqq> just making sure I wasn't crazy Mar 25 20:31:46 <quaid> for those curious about various comments here Mar 25 20:31:53 <quaid> we are writing together via gobby Mar 25 20:32:01 <Sparks> ke4qqq: That top part is commented out. Should we use some of that or just open up the document with "The wait is over." Mar 25 20:32:02 <Sparks> ?\ Mar 25 20:32:06 <ke4qqq> why is Gnome 2.26 and kde 4.2 not on their own line Mar 25 20:32:18 <quaid> ke4qqq: contraction :) Mar 25 20:32:20 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Because we were trying to conform Mar 25 20:32:37 <laubersm> ke4qqq, we condensed to a single bullet of updated desktops... Mar 25 20:32:49 <ke4qqq> combining them makes it seem like an insignificant update Mar 25 20:32:52 <quaid> G then K is alpha Mar 25 20:32:53 <Sparks> Personally, I think they are big ticket items and could be separated if we have enough "stuff" to put behind them Mar 25 20:33:24 <quaid> isn't 4.2 in F10 Mar 25 20:33:25 <quaid> ? Mar 25 20:33:44 <ke4qqq> yes, but is debuting in F11 Mar 25 20:33:49 <ke4qqq> iirc Mar 25 20:34:03 <jjmcd> I think it was in the talking points Mar 25 20:34:07 <quaid> honey, she can't re-debut Mar 25 20:34:13 <quaid> :) Mar 25 20:34:42 <ke4qqq> sure - just like xfs support :) Mar 25 20:34:47 <laubersm> Sparks, How much "stuff" do you want in the *announce* page? Mar 25 20:34:58 <laubersm> that is the question that keeps comin round Mar 25 20:35:06 <Sparks> Just enough to reel them in. Mar 25 20:35:11 <jjmcd> Exactly - I would argue the gnome and kde updates ARE minor Mar 25 20:35:16 <Sparks> You don't want to say you have a car for sale Mar 25 20:35:25 <Sparks> You want to say you have a fast, red car for sale Mar 25 20:35:39 <jjmcd> Hey - you ain't selling my car! Mar 25 20:35:48 <Sparks> jjmcd: too late Mar 25 20:36:03 <ke4qqq> so since press is one of our target demographics - I think a column listing 'importnant' stuff is important, if they have to read the details it may not get covered. Mar 25 20:36:05 <quaid> can't we link them to longer info? Mar 25 20:36:16 <jjmcd> We do Mar 25 20:36:29 <jjmcd> We link to the beta rn's and also to the beats Mar 25 20:36:31 <quaid> then lots of shortness is better than fewer longer bits Mar 25 20:36:33 <laubersm> anyone who is looking for it will find it with a single bullet saying that all the desktops have been updated to the latest version and Mar 25 20:36:35 <Sparks> Yeah to the release notes Mar 25 20:36:49 <laubersm> those that don't know they need it won't care that it is not separate bullets Mar 25 20:36:55 <Sparks> Then you have a grocery list Mar 25 20:37:01 <laubersm> The RN then has all the details in their own sections Mar 25 20:37:06 <quaid> Sparks: with adjectives Mar 25 20:37:13 <jjmcd> We also have a link to the feature list Mar 25 20:37:22 <quaid> Fantastic new sparkling beans in a can! Mar 25 20:37:29 <quaid> v . Mar 25 20:37:32 <quaid> beans Mar 25 20:37:42 <ke4qqq> latest vintage sparkling beans in a can :) Mar 25 20:37:48 <Sparks> yikes Mar 25 20:37:52 <Sparks> no more beans! :) Mar 25 20:37:59 <jjmcd> And you don't learn that you need a fancy new $1000 can opener until you get to the beats Mar 25 20:38:10 <laubersm> and btw - the feature list needs some love too - there was a request to f-d-l a while back to wordsmith it and I have done some but it needs much more... Mar 25 20:38:20 <Sparks> The desktop statement just sounds bland to me Mar 25 20:38:38 <jjmcd> It kind of is ... there are no really cool user features Mar 25 20:38:55 <Sparks> Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop? Mar 25 20:39:09 <ke4qqq> they moved to kde 4.2 and gnome 2.26 Mar 25 20:39:18 * Pikachu_2014 (n=Pikachu_@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:39:21 <Sparks> so they just changed the number? Mar 25 20:39:29 <laubersm> and fixed the bugs Mar 25 20:39:44 <laubersm> they changed how sound works in gnome Mar 25 20:39:57 <laubersm> and broke it elsewhere Mar 25 20:39:58 <jjmcd> I think there were some enablers there, too, but nothing earth shattering Mar 25 20:39:58 * zwu|gone is now known as zwu Mar 25 20:40:11 <ke4qqq> 20 second startup? Mar 25 20:40:12 * laubersm is kidding Mar 25 20:40:33 <ke4qqq> Auto Bug Reporting Tool? Mar 25 20:40:36 <Sparks> Gnome 2.26 has been updated to include new sound controls, a faster startup, and an ATM that will funnel money directly into your pocket Mar 25 20:41:10 <ke4qqq> tbird3 Mar 25 20:41:39 <ke4qqq> delta rpms? preso Mar 25 20:41:42 <ke4qqq> presto Mar 25 20:41:44 * joat (n=joat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #Fedora-Meeting Mar 25 20:41:55 <ke4qqq> ohhhh the big one Mar 25 20:41:57 <laubersm> ke4qqq, are you suggesting we replace some of the existing bullets with these other choices? Mar 25 20:41:58 <ke4qqq> OPENCHANGE Mar 25 20:42:10 <ke4qqq> I am answering Sparks question Mar 25 20:42:18 * laubersm looks back.... Mar 25 20:42:27 <Sparks> ke4qqq: What was my question?!? Mar 25 20:42:34 <Sparks> Oh Mar 25 20:42:36 <Sparks> Bah Mar 25 20:42:40 <laubersm> ahh Mar 25 20:42:41 <ke4qqq> 20:38 < Sparks> Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop? Mar 25 20:42:50 <ke4qqq> but we HAVE to cover openchange Mar 25 20:42:53 <ke4qqq> that's HUGE Mar 25 20:43:05 <ke4qqq> first distro to have it Mar 25 20:43:05 <laubersm> ke4qqq, but those are not parts of the desktop envirment themselves... they are separate apps Mar 25 20:43:05 <stickster> We don't need to cover every single change in the Beta announcement Mar 25 20:43:07 <Sparks> Openchange? Mar 25 20:43:20 <ke4qqq> native mapi library for linux Mar 25 20:43:32 <ke4qqq> corporate drones like me rejoice Mar 25 20:43:35 <laubersm> wow!!! Mar 25 20:43:36 <Sparks> :) Mar 25 20:43:38 <laubersm> what's that mean? Mar 25 20:43:53 <ke4qqq> native exchange access for evolution and kdepim Mar 25 20:44:05 <laubersm> ick Mar 25 20:44:10 <Sparks> Are we really going to say "Microsoft" in our announcement? Mar 25 20:44:13 <jjmcd> Not nearly as HUGE as qtel Mar 25 20:44:17 <Sparks> That's just bad juju right there Mar 25 20:44:21 <laubersm> but I can see why corp drones rejoice Mar 25 20:44:46 * Nirmal has quit ("Leaving") Mar 25 20:44:47 * EvilBob has quit (Remote closed the connection) Mar 25 20:44:57 <ke4qqq> perhaps my perspective is skewed on that point Mar 25 20:45:05 <ke4qqq> I'll defer to the wisdom of others Mar 25 20:45:11 <quaid> Sparks: it's a trademark Mar 25 20:45:21 <ke4qqq> though I think it's huge. Mar 25 20:45:25 <ke4qqq> jjmcd: what's qtel? Mar 25 20:45:36 <quaid> it's just habit to use trademarks of other people correctly, it's respectful Mar 25 20:45:36 <jjmcd> echolink client - huge to a different audience Mar 25 20:45:46 <laubersm> we are already saying Microsoft - with the cross compiler. Mar 25 20:45:47 <stickster> We can get away with just the first one, though, which is also standard Mar 25 20:45:55 <quaid> Sparks: also, I don't like to concede the generic word 'windows' to MSFT Mar 25 20:46:03 <Sparks> Yeah... but it points out that there are other OSs to deal with. We shouldn't be point out anyone else's OS... IMO Mar 25 20:46:13 <stickster> quaid: The problem is, now it reads like it's a Microsoft product we're including. Mar 25 20:46:13 <quaid> stickster: not really iirc aiui Mar 25 20:46:24 <quaid> ok then reword it Mar 25 20:46:32 <Sparks> stickster: yeah Mar 25 20:46:35 <quaid> how about Mar 25 20:46:45 <stickster> dammit, that's not right either Mar 25 20:46:58 <stickster> There you go Mar 25 20:47:02 <quaid> not MS Mar 25 20:47:04 <Sparks> Cross compiler for that "OtherOS" Mar 25 20:47:16 <quaid> heh Mar 25 20:47:17 <Sparks> ") Mar 25 20:47:19 <Sparks> :) Mar 25 20:47:42 <jjmcd> "Windows from that evil empire in Washington"? Mar 25 20:47:55 * G_work_ is now known as G_work Mar 25 20:48:23 * laubersm seems to remember that same issue/discussion when that item reached feature review as well.... Mar 25 20:48:37 * ke4qqq notes we are 47 minutes into the meeting. Mar 25 20:48:40 * EvilBob (n=EvilBob@fedora/bobjensen) has joined #Fedora-Meeting Mar 25 20:49:01 <quaid> who summoned EvilBob ?!?! Mar 25 20:49:13 <jjmcd> But we have made huge improvements in the announcement Mar 25 20:49:14 <Sparks> ke4qqq: We are going over tonight Mar 25 20:49:18 <quaid> ok, working meeting is tough Mar 25 20:49:28 <quaid> Sparks: do you want to cover anything else within the hour Mar 25 20:49:30 <ke4qqq> I am not objecting - just keeping us mindful Mar 25 20:49:35 <stickster> Is there not Publican stuff on the agenda? Mar 25 20:49:36 <ke4qqq> of the time Mar 25 20:49:37 <quaid> just in case ppl have to go? Mar 25 20:49:47 <Sparks> Yeah, does anyone need to bail at the top of the hour? Mar 25 20:49:50 <quaid> we could take apause on the announcement Mar 25 20:50:00 <stickster> Sparks: Unfortch, I do Mar 25 20:50:00 <quaid> I just read it top to bottom and did a few edits, it's quite there Mar 25 20:50:03 <Sparks> bah Mar 25 20:50:06 <Sparks> Okay... Mar 25 20:50:14 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Publican Discussion Mar 25 20:50:25 <Sparks> We'll jump back on the announcement in a few... Mar 25 20:50:36 <Sparks> So there is a problem. Mar 25 20:50:51 <jjmcd> multiples, actually Mar 25 20:50:55 <Sparks> We've been trying to shoehorn Publican into Fedora for the past three releases... Mar 25 20:51:16 <Sparks> and I know that I've gone rounds with Publican trying to get it to meet my needs... Mar 25 20:51:18 <stickster> Er, two, right? Mar 25 20:51:21 <Sparks> with some success. Mar 25 20:51:24 <stickster> Anyway, it's been a while coming. Mar 25 20:51:38 <Sparks> I'm going to count three problems... Mar 25 20:51:58 <Sparks> 1) The naming schema does not match Fedora naming schema. Mar 25 20:52:21 <Sparks> 2) The Translators don't get statistics from Publican packages. Mar 25 20:52:37 <Sparks> 3) Support is lacking for changes that need to be made for Fedora. Mar 25 20:52:47 <ke4qqq> ? Mar 25 20:52:49 <quaid> on #2, stats are available via CLI tools only, which breaks team workflow Mar 25 20:52:56 <Sparks> quaid: Thanks Mar 25 20:53:02 <quaid> on #1, this is packaging naming in specific Mar 25 20:53:08 <Sparks> right Mar 25 20:53:09 <jjmcd> It also looks as if the structure of the various langs produced by Publican is different and something else we may need to deal with Mar 25 20:53:16 <quaid> ke4qqq: go ahead Mar 25 20:53:24 <quaid> jjmcd: good point Mar 25 20:53:31 <quaid> previous tools put all langs in one package Mar 25 20:53:35 <stickster> Another note on #2, Spot and I have been working on some folks internally to break loose some hours to pitch in code that lets Tx handle Publican. Mar 25 20:53:37 <quaid> publican produces 1 package per lang Mar 25 20:53:49 <quaid> meaning we have x*y new packages Mar 25 20:54:05 <Sparks> and each has to be evaluated Mar 25 20:54:14 <stickster> 1 SRPM per lang? Mar 25 20:54:14 <ke4qqq> can you explain #3 - should I be taking that as upstream doesn't want to help us, or that they are abandoning? Mar 25 20:54:33 <ke4qqq> stickster: what has your success level been? Mar 25 20:54:36 <jjmcd> But if we need to hack the rpm, we *MAY* be able to fix that anyway Mar 25 20:54:43 <stickster> ke4qqq: Hang on, let's resolve these questions first Mar 25 20:54:46 <ke4qqq> ok Mar 25 20:54:47 <quaid> ke4qqq: features requested have primarily been met with an answer that they are not pertinent to the Publican audience. Mar 25 20:54:53 <stickster> quaid: Is that 1 SRPM per lang? Mar 25 20:54:56 <Sparks> ke4qqq: I have moderate success with getting things fixed upstream but I've also been told that fixes for "silly" Fedora problems won't be fixed. Mar 25 20:55:02 <Sparks> which is a problem Mar 25 20:55:04 <jjmcd> stickster: yes Mar 25 20:55:10 <quaid> ke4qqq: and either cannot be done as it is written or there are no resources to fix but a patch is welcome.\ Mar 25 20:55:11 <stickster> Oh. Ew. Mar 25 20:55:36 <quaid> yeah, forgot about that one Mar 25 20:55:52 <Sparks> yeah, that one has been brewing for a while Mar 25 20:55:53 <ke4qqq> wow - guess that's one way to get package count up Mar 25 20:56:02 <quaid> *snort* Mar 25 20:56:10 <stickster> That should be part of any spec file fix that we brew up, if we bother at all. Mar 25 20:56:13 <Sparks> Does anyone have any questions about #1? Mar 25 20:56:38 <Sparks> (I'm going to dig up an email in a sec...) Mar 25 20:56:39 <jjmcd> does our package HAVE to be called f-r-n Mar 25 20:56:52 <quaid> jjmcd: ask f13 Mar 25 20:57:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: The problem stems from the product number being put into the name. Mar 25 20:57:18 <stickster> jjmcd: It needs to carry the word "fedora-" at the front, AIUI, since it's part of the branding that would be removed in a remix. Mar 25 20:57:42 <f13> ... what name would you prefer? Mar 25 20:58:11 <Sparks> It is the difference between fedora-security-guide and fedora-security-guide-10 Mar 25 20:58:20 <jjmcd> I was wondering why not allow Publican to put the release number in the package name Mar 25 20:58:35 <f13> eeew Mar 25 20:58:39 <Sparks> Well, right now you can't turn it off Mar 25 20:58:42 <f13> versions should never be in the name. Mar 25 20:58:54 <Sparks> and the Security Guide is not tied directly to ANY specific release of Fedora Mar 25 20:59:15 <jjmcd> Why not allow people to install the NEXT version of release notes to study before installing? Mar 25 20:59:21 * kolesovdv has quit (Remote closed the connection) Mar 25 20:59:27 * Tsagadai (n=ccurran@nat/redhat/x-3dbd5f30fc89cdd7) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:59:31 <quaid> jjmcd: right, that's the use case being argued for Mar 25 20:59:33 <stickster> jjmcd: That was kind of my question. It's actually a useful thing IMHO Mar 25 20:59:43 <quaid> but it's a packaging committee discussion, really Mar 25 20:59:51 <quaid> and someone has to care enough to take it there Mar 25 20:59:55 <f13> you can upgrade your release notes Mar 25 21:00:11 <f13> do you think that somebody would want to go back and read the old ones locally once that has been done? Mar 25 21:00:19 <quaid> f13: it's for sysadmins Mar 25 21:00:25 <f13> (and why would they install the package when the newer release notes are available on the web?) Mar 25 21:00:25 <quaid> to have multiple versions of one guide Mar 25 21:00:25 <stickster> f13: And for writers. Mar 25 21:00:27 <quaid> one per package Mar 25 21:00:27 <laubersm> f13: yes Mar 25 21:00:39 <ke4qqq> so do we have someone lobbying FPC for this? Mar 25 21:00:51 <quaid> ke4qqq: not from Docs Mar 25 21:00:57 <quaid> that I know of Mar 25 21:01:02 <quaid> nor do I see consensus that is the way to go :L) Mar 25 21:01:04 <Sparks> I don't have a problem having the number there but I want the option to turn it off. Mar 25 21:01:17 <Sparks> Because I don't want it in my document. Mar 25 21:01:40 <jjmcd> I'm not convinced it is the right answer, but I'm not convinced it isn't Mar 25 21:01:46 * kolesovdv (n=kolesovd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 21:02:02 <quaid> seems a legit use case to me Mar 25 21:02:09 <quaid> but it's freaking late to bring the case Mar 25 21:02:15 <stickster> Sparks: So the problem here is that Publican doesn't predict any documentation that's not tied to a specific software release Mar 25 21:02:17 <Sparks> I'd be happy to fight the battle with the FPC but Publican is broken for me Mar 25 21:02:24 <jjmcd> Yeah, whatever we do we need to work with the tools we got Mar 25 21:02:50 <Sparks> stickster: You cannot tell Publican to NOT use the product number. So everything HAS to be tied to a specific release. Mar 25 21:03:04 <quaid> how much work would it be to add PDF to fedora-doc-utils and package the whole thing? Mar 25 21:03:23 <quaid> s/add/fix/ Mar 25 21:03:25 <Sparks> quaid: Would you like me to paste the five options? Mar 25 21:03:32 <jjmcd> And my leaning is to continue down the Publican path, so we are at least a baby step closer come F12 time Mar 25 21:03:54 <Sparks> jjmcd: We wouldn't be Mar 25 21:04:07 <Sparks> Okay... earlier I posted an email to the f-docs-l... Mar 25 21:04:23 <stickster> I would like to try my hand at fixing this problem, but it's hours that I don't tend to have anymore :-( Mar 25 21:04:24 <Sparks> that had five options for moving forward because I don't tread water that well... Mar 25 21:04:31 <quaid> jjmcd: someone from the wide community needs to be a Publican contributor, work on Fedora Docs needs, and maybe take over the package. Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks> 1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks> consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks> 2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks> name Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks> 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks> 4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM Mar 25 21:04:39 <Sparks> 5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively Mar 25 21:04:40 <stickster> Because I *think* we could add needed support to the publican-fedora brand pacakge. Mar 25 21:04:43 <stickster> *package. Mar 25 21:05:21 <Sparks> I don't have a problem with forking the development at this point. Mar 25 21:05:21 <quaid> jjmcd: iirc jfearn has stated that he'd love to not maintain the package Mar 25 21:05:32 <laubersm> I like the idea of a FPC exception for F11 name with version and long term fix publican to allow no version number Mar 25 21:05:37 <stickster> I don't think a fork is required, we could put needed support in the Makefile.fedora Mar 25 21:05:41 <quaid> jjmcd: without that level of commitment from some general Fedoran, I fear we'll always be second citizens in the Publican audience Mar 25 21:05:50 <ke4qqq> I am rapidly favoring the fork option. Especially if upstream considers these "silly" Mar 25 21:06:11 * stickster thinks we should not rush to using the word "fork" if people here simply aren't aware of what we can apply to the publican-fedora package. Mar 25 21:06:12 <jjmcd> I don't think the number is the only problem Mar 25 21:06:18 <stickster> Let's put that term aside for a moment. Mar 25 21:06:46 <Sparks> stickster: It's not in the makefile Mar 25 21:06:57 <Sparks> stickster: It is in the core of Publican Mar 25 21:07:20 <stickster> Sparks: Well, the thing creating the specfile is an XSL sheet, yes? Mar 25 21:07:55 <Sparks> stickster: No idea. I don't remember where I pulled that line of code out and beat it with a hammer. Mar 25 21:08:18 <Sparks> stickster: But if it were that easy, why all the problems four months later? Mar 25 21:08:21 <stickster> So, as a fellow Docs guy, I'm not really comfortable with people yelling "Fork! Fork!" when we don't fully grok the technical stuff Mar 25 21:08:32 <stickster> Because then it seems like we really don't know why we're forking. Mar 25 21:08:39 <Sparks> Spoon! Spoon! Mar 25 21:08:42 <stickster> heh Mar 25 21:09:01 <jjmcd> But it does look to me, at least for F11, that option 4 is the straightest line Mar 25 21:09:29 <stickster> jjmcd: The problem is that fedora-doc-utils won't work with Publican formatted materials, and vice versa. Mar 25 21:09:32 <stickster> They are mutually incompatible. Mar 25 21:09:56 <stickster> (at least, not without some hacking, which, if we're going to do it, we might as well try to do with Publican.) Mar 25 21:10:02 <stickster> er, publican-fedora Mar 25 21:10:02 <jjmcd> But since all we need is basically a specfile, is it really that big of a deal? Mar 25 21:10:08 <Sparks> yeah, we need to get PDF action into fedora-doc-utils IF that is something we want to offer Mar 25 21:10:13 * FergatROn (n=Marc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 21:10:39 <stickster> I'll take a task of looking at Publican up through this weekend to see what we can fix. If I don't think it can be done, I should at least explain why to the list. Mar 25 21:10:45 <jjmcd> Publican makes docs we can use, it just doesn't package them Mar 25 21:11:01 * FergatROn has quit (Client Quit) Mar 25 21:11:32 * stickster notes that if jfearn is amenable to our taking over publican-fedora, we should try and implement fixes there. But if the architecture doesn't allow it, we move on. Mar 25 21:11:42 <stickster> Or at least, I will :-) Mar 25 21:11:44 <Sparks> jjmcd: We make docs we can use... That last step is putting them in the hands of everyone else Mar 25 21:12:02 <jjmcd> Yes, but all that really is is packaging Mar 25 21:12:15 * stickster has to bail, late Mar 25 21:12:24 * laubersm too Mar 25 21:12:26 <jjmcd> ciao Mar 25 21:12:34 <stickster> I'll catch up on the log and see what I can do with publican-fedora over the rest of the week Mar 25 21:12:55 <Sparks> Okay, I think we should let stickster do some investigating and maybe he can tell us something next week. Mar 25 21:12:57 <Tsagadai> option 6 is far easier Mar 25 21:13:41 <Sparks> Anything else before we go back to the Beta Announcement? Mar 25 21:13:57 <jjmcd> PDF Mar 25 21:14:02 <Sparks> yes? Mar 25 21:14:06 <jjmcd> Is that something we want,and where Mar 25 21:14:07 * stickster is now known as stickster_afk Mar 25 21:14:22 <ke4qqq> yes Mar 25 21:14:24 <Sparks> Good question. What are we going to do with a PDF? Mar 25 21:14:29 <quaid> jjmcd: we want them for all docs, on docs.fp.o Mar 25 21:14:48 <jjmcd> Personally, I like PDFs, but since we don't have them I don't see their place Mar 25 21:14:53 <quaid> alongside tarball, html one page, etc. Mar 25 21:14:56 <Sparks> quaid: In lieu of html? Mar 25 21:14:59 <quaid> jjmcd: long requested feature Mar 25 21:14:59 <jjmcd> OK, that would be good Mar 25 21:15:00 <quaid> no Mar 25 21:15:04 <quaid> alongside html Mar 25 21:15:20 <quaid> ppl want to print the Installation Guide, etc. Mar 25 21:15:24 <Sparks> +1 Mar 25 21:15:25 <jjmcd> yepper Mar 25 21:16:09 <Sparks> Okay, anything else? Mar 25 21:16:12 * laubersm is now known as laubersm_afk Mar 25 21:16:14 <ke4qqq> quaid: they might not this release :) Mar 25 21:16:43 <jjmcd> because the IG is unhelpful? Mar 25 21:16:54 <ke4qqq> because it's up to 172 pages Mar 25 21:17:17 <jjmcd> That hard to install, huh Mar 25 21:17:39 <Sparks> Okay... back to the announcement Mar 25 21:17:49 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement Part 2 Mar 25 21:17:58 <Sparks> Any other changes? Mar 25 21:18:53 * openpercept (n=openperc@unaffiliated/openpercept) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 21:19:39 <Sparks> I see jjmcd making a few changes Mar 25 21:19:52 * dychen_ has quit ("Ex-Chat") Mar 25 21:20:11 * dychen_ (n=dingyich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 21:20:44 <jjmcd> I still keep wondering about gcc. I feel like we should be warning ppl, but it doesn't seem right in an announcement Mar 25 21:21:02 * nman64 (n=n-man@fedora/nman64) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 21:21:33 <jjmcd> Do we need to talk about replacing HAL? Mar 25 21:21:42 <jjmcd> Maybe for the geeks Mar 25 21:21:50 <Sparks> the gcc thing still sounds weird Mar 25 21:21:53 <ke4qqq> not replacing - but perhaps what replaced it Mar 25 21:23:00 <Sparks> volume control model ??? Mar 25 21:23:10 <ke4qqq> indeed!!! Mar 25 21:23:14 <Sparks> Should that just be volume control? Mar 25 21:23:31 <jjmcd> yeah Mar 25 21:23:31 * ke4qqq thought we were talking about going up to 11 Mar 25 21:23:49 * jjmcd is still stressing over gcc ... ... Mar 25 21:24:09 * n9986 (n=nandeep@unaffiliated/n9986) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 21:25:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: Is there anything in the RN about power management or "greeness"? Mar 25 21:25:18 <jjmcd> ke4qqq - any better? Mar 25 21:25:36 <jjmcd> I don't recall seeing anything Mar 25 21:25:40 * openpercept has quit ("Leaving.") Mar 25 21:25:47 <ke4qqq> worksforme Mar 25 21:25:55 <ke4qqq> q Mar 25 21:25:59 <Sparks> I thought there was some changes coming for powertop Mar 25 21:27:06 <jjmcd> Nothing in the talking points Mar 25 21:27:22 <Sparks> Make ext4 the default files system for anaconda-driven installs (replacing ext3). User should notice generally better performance, and benefit from things such as persistent preallocation when using updated torrent clients, and so forth. Mar 25 21:27:26 <Sparks> and so forth? Mar 25 21:28:15 <ke4qqq> torrent clients seems too much detail Mar 25 21:28:26 <ke4qqq> how about better performance? Mar 25 21:28:29 <ke4qqq> and end it there? Mar 25 21:28:58 <jjmcd> There is a kind of motherhood and apple pie statement in the feature list about power Mar 25 21:29:05 <ke4qqq> and so forth? Mar 25 21:29:47 <ke4qqq> do my changes to ext4 rile anyones feathers? Mar 25 21:29:54 <Sparks> I don't like the "and so forth" Mar 25 21:30:13 <ke4qqq> well that disappeared with some other stuff Mar 25 21:30:17 <Sparks> jjmcd: What is it? Mar 25 21:30:32 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Remove generally? Mar 25 21:30:44 <ke4qqq> ok Mar 25 21:30:47 <jjmcd> Looking at the feature page for power management and it looks pretty good Mar 25 21:31:02 <jjmcd> not so sure it will be easy to say in 25 wors or less Mar 25 21:31:22 <Sparks> ke4qqq: how's that? Mar 25 21:31:24 <Sparks> jjmcd: link? Mar 25 21:31:35 <ke4qqq> why add read/write - one of the cool improvements is fsck time Mar 25 21:31:44 <jjmcd> Features/Power_Management - sorry on another box Mar 25 21:31:48 <ke4qqq> how about filesystem Mar 25 21:31:50 <ke4qqq> ? Mar 25 21:32:29 <ke4qqq> will is much stronger +1 Mar 25 21:33:00 <Sparks> :) Mar 25 21:33:07 <ke4qqq> am I crazy or does a not belong there? Mar 25 21:33:08 <Sparks> YOU WILL! Mar 25 21:33:17 <Sparks> where? Mar 25 21:33:22 <ke4qqq> shall we move to #fedora-docs? Mar 25 21:33:42 <ke4qqq> nm it's addressed now Mar 25 21:33:50 <ke4qqq> the a part not the moving Mar 25 21:33:51 <Sparks> I don't like ext4, still Mar 25 21:34:07 * n9986_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) Mar 25 21:35:34 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else for the meeting? Mar 25 21:35:42 * Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Anything else? Mar 25 21:36:24 <Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming! Mar 25 21:36:40 <Sparks> </meeting>
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