On the wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20080813 12:04 < quaid> <meeting> 12:04 < quaid> :) 12:04 < quaid> no, I got lost and never made it to the agenda this morning 12:04 < quaid> it's essentially the same 12:05 < quaid> I was hoping ianweller_afk and G might be here, but I think their thuoghts are well known 12:05 < quaid> about wiki page naming 12:05 < quaid> but I think we need a compromise, I think I know what it has to be, and it is not that great but not terrible. 12:05 < couf> G is on IRC-break 12:05 -!- ke4qqq_ [n=ke4qqq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 12:06 < quaid> couf: as an action to protect his life and sanity? or just AFK? 12:06 < couf> the former 12:06 -!- ke4qqq [n=ke4qqq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:06 -!- ke4qqq_ is now known as ke4qqq 12:07 -!- MegaCoder [n=MegaCode@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:07 < quaid> ok 12:07 < quaid> well, like I said, opinion known, etc. :) 12:09 < quaid> ok, so here's my agenda, any additions? 12:09 < quaid> 1. finish wiki page naming 12:09 < quaid> 2. scope package guidelines changes 12:09 < couf> I'm is totally out the loop, but I guess you guys made some good arguments and can make a good decision about it 12:09 < quaid> 3. double-check on release deadlines 12:10 < quaid> 4. ?? 12:10 < quaid> couf: 17 < quaid> overholt: can you refresh me on what came from talks with JPackage and Fedora? 12:10 < quaid> ... 12:10 < quaid> sorry, bad paste 12:10 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help_talk:Wiki_Structure 12:10 < quaid> couf: that's the discussion we had, worth a catch up on 12:11 < quaid> ok, if we have any other agenda items ... 12:11 < couf> quaid: thanks 12:11 < ke4qqq> quaid can we add Example_wiki_page to the agenda 12:12 < quaid> ke4qqq: thx 12:14 -!- denise [n=ddumas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who_Know@fedora/sonarguy] has joined #fedora-docs 12:15 * stickster gets off phone with mgr 12:15 < couf> we can move to -meeting if we want to 12:16 < stickster> yeah, what couf said ^^ 12:17 -!- denise [n=ddumas@nat/redhat/x-cb3ab6211b37d149] has joined #fedora-docs 12:18 < quaid> </meeting action="move_to_-meeting"> 12:18 < quaid> <meeting> 12:18 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs : Wiki page naming 12:18 < quaid> ok, figuring couf has caught up a bit 12:18 < quaid> I have to admit I've waffled again :) 12:19 < quaid> because the compromise position is different from the hardline MediaWiki one 12:19 < quaid> so I'm back to this: 12:20 < quaid> 1. Foo_Project/ and Foo_SIG/ effectively separate contributor-focused content, by subject areas, away from end-user content 12:20 -!- kushal [n=kdas@nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:20 < quaid> 2. Help_with_Foo is the best way to do *all* end-user focused content; all such content can be moved from e.g. SELinux/FAQ to FAQ_for_SELinux 12:21 < quaid> 3. Then we move all meeting stuff to Meeting:, archive stuff to Archive:, all without changing any other part of the name 12:21 < quaid> the controversy is around 1. 12:21 < quaid> here are my reasons why I think that has to be the compromise: 12:21 -!- cassmodiah [n=cass@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:21 < quaid> * it's too hard to explain why a massive change of everything to people who *like* stuff organized by Nested/Folders 12:22 < quaid> * People will get the need to have Real_named_documents, due to search, readibility, etc. 12:22 -!- jsmith [n=jsmith@xxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:22 * jsmith realizes the time and sneaks in 12:22 < quaid> * We can likely convince people to accept moving names _within_ the Foo_Project/ space 12:22 * quaid pm's the status to jsmith 12:23 < quaid> * Since contributors like, are used to, and don't care much about changing from nesting (all guessed by me without a single poll!), why make them move? 12:24 < quaid> * Don't make the Foo_Project nesting a requirement either way, let people do it themselves 12:24 < quaid> * We give clear guidelines on how to clean up what is there and how to name in the future 12:24 < quaid> <eolist><eof> 12:24 < quaid> thoughts? 12:24 * ke4qqq respectfully disagrees 12:24 < quaid> yay! 12:24 < quaid> go ahead 12:25 < ke4qqq> thinks single guide to doing it is best.....do it nested or plaintext 12:25 < ke4qqq> plaintext is better for searching 12:25 < quaid> the / doesn't get in the way 12:25 < ke4qqq> pain is no worse for doing some renaming as it is to doing all renaming 12:25 < quaid> it's treated by the search tool as a space 12:25 < ke4qqq> does google agree with that though? 12:25 < ke4qqq> does google treat it as a space? 12:26 < quaid> how do we test that? 12:26 < quaid> I mean, I google for "live usb how to" and the right page turns up 12:26 < quaid> and it has zero spaces, it's all nested CamelCase 12:26 < ke4qqq> hmmm what do I know then 12:26 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 12:26 < jsmith> Yes, I think Google does the right thing 12:26 < quaid> ke4qqq: you are right that ambiguity on our part is lame 12:26 < quaid> " 12:26 < quaid> Nest or not, who cares?" 12:26 < quaid> we should guide people to not nest 12:27 -!- kushal [n=kdas@nat/redhat-in/x-2362c7bb61c194de] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:27 < quaid> but tell them they can change it or not, it's up to them, just get the damn sub_pages renamed so they can be found 12:27 < ke4qqq> we just need to pick out one 12:27 < quaid> DocsProject 12:27 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who_Know@fedora/sonarguy] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:27 < quaid> SIGs/Font was already done by nim-nim 12:28 < quaid> there is a lot of inertia in the nesting, unless we are prepared to do it all ourselves, we are in the position of convincing others of what is best 12:28 < quaid> and there is a lot of legacy 12:29 < jsmith> We can't force others to do the right thing... all we can do is explain correct principles in such a way that they want to do the right thing 12:29 < jsmith> I think it's a matter of explaining why what they're used to is a bad idea 12:29 < ke4qqq> so if searching isn't the reason - why not use nested? 12:30 < jsmith> I thought searching was the reason 12:30 -!- buggbot [n=supybot@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30 * ke4qqq is confused 12:30 -!- buggbot [n=supybot@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:30 < quaid> ke4qqq: the nesting would all have to be single words 12:30 < quaid> this would work though, in terms of MW search: 12:31 < quaid> Foo_Project/Tool_docs/Doc_about_something 12:31 < quaid> it's not natural language, but it would turn up for searches on "Tool" " 12:31 < quaid> "something" and "foo" 12:31 -!- techbugs [n=siddhart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:33 < couf> fwiw I'm +1 with quaid's compromise 12:34 < quaid> jsmith: I'm not convinced we can explain the "why" well enough to get a higher rate of compliance, if the "what" involves completely renaming every single page 12:34 < quaid> if the "what" is, "Do this now to make your stuff findable, do this in the future to make it good, here is the best and recommended way," then I think the why goes over better. 12:34 < couf> renaming every page is just overkill and loss of manpower 12:35 < quaid> couf: and if it's really worth it, it will happen for most pages over time anyway 12:35 < couf> true 12:38 < jsmith> quaid: I hate to even ask this out loud, but if we can't explain the "why" well enough, then why are we wasting our time? 12:38 < ke4qqq> has to admit that is a question I was asking myself 12:38 < quaid> now now 12:38 < jsmith> Playing devil's advocate here for a second -- don't get upset at me :-) 12:39 < quaid> two main reasons: 12:39 < quaid> * we need natural language with spaces to get search to be useful 12:39 < quaid> * we need natural language for sane translation 12:39 < quaid> sane(r) trans, anyway 12:39 < jsmith> OK, I'm perfectly happy with those reasons. 12:39 < quaid> i.e., nesting and idioms don't mix well 12:40 < jsmith> But you don't think we can articulate those reasons in such a way that people will want to do the right thing with regards to wiki naming? 12:40 < quaid> so, our "why" covers that but does not fully justify the removing of the single-level of nesting 12:41 * quaid notes search results are a bit funky with Foo_Project all grouped together, but the quality of that is a matter of taste. 12:41 < ke4qqq> those are satisfactory reasons but if they are good enough to remove most nesting why not all. 12:41 < quaid> there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a single-level of nesting 12:42 < quaid> it gets us a sorting of content by contributor interest area without using the more restrictive Namespace: trick in MW 12:42 < quaid> Namespace: moves it outside of the default search 12:42 < quaid> this all stems from having two audiences, IMO 12:43 < quaid> and it being confusing to either audience to find e.g. end-user docs in the contributor search results 12:44 * stickster is assuming all bets are off in the User: namespace 12:45 < quaid> yep 12:46 < quaid> in fact, that's something we do want to specify; use that area at will 12:48 < stickster> Discussion seems to have petered out. 12:48 < stickster> Has a decision been taken then? 12:48 -!- mclasen [n=mclasen@nat/redhat/x-281775b2292f2fd4] has left #fedora-meeting ["There must be some way out of here."] 12:48 < stickster> Is wiki naming put to bed now? 12:49 -!- Keybuk [n=scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has left #fedora-meeting ["夠荒唐"] 12:49 * ke4qqq didn't see a decision 12:50 < wonderer1> so what are so far the naming conventions? if users did not do their own user. name naming... 12:50 * couf hopes to put it to bed 12:51 * ke4qqq is fine with decision by fiat 12:51 < wonderer1> for me it works fine. just want to know befor I start with orphaned pages and so on... 12:51 < stickster> quaid: Can you summarize the final decision on how we're going to do this? 12:53 < quaid> hmm 12:53 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:53 < quaid> I think it's basically on Help:Wiki_Naming (a name that doesn't quite follow the directions) 12:54 < quaid> I can do a final write up there 12:54 < wonderer1> sounds good 12:54 < quaid> but before I say "this is the decision" 12:54 < quaid> are we in fact decided? 12:54 < quaid> the objections that ke4qqq brings up are the same ones I hear in other places, 12:55 < stickster> Let's make this clear. 12:55 < quaid> so this is what I would like to do: 12:55 < quaid> * Write up a decision to vote up or down on the mailing list 12:55 < quaid> * invite discussion 12:56 * jsmith wonders if he haven't already had enough discussion (how many weeks has this been on the agenda?) 12:56 < stickster> Wait, haven't we had that before? 12:56 * ke4qqq disagrees - we've tried discussion (me once, ian once, and quaid once) and none ensued 12:56 < quaid> * see if we can get a good "why" page from that discussion as a reason behind the "what" in Help:Wiki_structure 12:56 < quaid> hmm 12:56 < jsmith> I say we vote here, now, and then work to get a good "why" page up 12:56 * couf needs to run, sorry folks 12:57 < quaid> fine 12:57 < stickster> couf: Please vote later by email if desired 12:57 < ke4qqq> jsmith: +1 12:57 < couf> stickster: will do 12:57 -!- giarc [i=hidden-u@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:57 -!- drago01 [n=linux@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57 * jsmith would rather get flamed for a quick vote than see this drag on for another month 12:57 < stickster> jsmith: +1 12:58 < quaid> +1 or -1 to: Do we permit _Project and _SIG content to remain under a single nesting? 12:58 < couf> +1 12:58 < stickster> +1 12:58 < jsmith> I have no problem with single nesting personally 12:58 < jsmith> +1 12:58 < wonderer1> +1 12:58 < ke4qqq> +1 12:58 < quaid> I'm +1, fwiw 12:58 < stickster> yay! 12:58 < quaid> ok, then we have ianweller_afk outvoted anyway :) 12:58 < quaid> note: permit, not encourage :) 12:59 < couf> +1 :) 12:59 < stickster> +1 again. 12:59 < quaid> everyone watch that page 12:59 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure 12:59 * couf really runs 12:59 < quaid> and I'll write up the final version 13:00 < quaid> unless someone else feels it is clear to them and wants to do it :) 13:00 * jsmith makes a motion to propose that quaid do it 13:01 * stickster +1's jsmith and then slaps him 13:01 < quaid> time's up anyway 13:01 < quaid> I'll do it 13:01 < quaid> anything more, see you on #fedora-docs 13:01 < quaid> </meeting>
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