[22 May 21:05] * stickster here [22 May 21:05] <jsmith> [22 May 21:05] * jsmith here [22 May 21:05] <jfearn> jfearn, here [22 May 21:05] <mdious> jsmith: MOIN! [22 May 21:06] <jsmith> Howdy mdious [22 May 21:06] <jsmith> Howdy jfearn [22 May 21:06] <asgeirf> hello folks :) [22 May 21:07] <jmtaylor> [22 May 21:07] * jmtaylor waves and sits back down [22 May 21:07] <Tsagadai> morning [22 May 21:07] <jfearn> jsmith, g'day :0 [22 May 21:07] <stickster> All righty, no quaid I guess [22 May 21:08] <stickster> He was having some router problems earlier today, maybe he took the hammer to it. [22 May 21:08] <stickster> What we want to do here is figure out where to go with the docs toolchain. [22 May 21:09] <stickster> The whole Fedora Docs Project is being revamped to an extent [22 May 21:09] <stickster> And what we were going to try to do is move any large docs people want to maintain out into their own hosted projects. [22 May 21:10] <stickster> That way a community can gather around them independently of the CVS and toolchain we've loped along with for years. [22 May 21:10] <stickster> The question remains, what in our toolchain is worth keeping? [22 May 21:11] <stickster> i.e., things where we can just plug in publican, for example [22 May 21:11] <jsmith> Well, I think (from my own experience) that there's probably a lot worth keeping (or incorporating into Publican)... I just don't know it as well as I do Publican [22 May 21:11] <jsmith> Last I heard from quaid, he was worried about the translation stuff [22 May 21:11] <stickster> There's a few clever bits in it, I'm pretty sure, thanks to people who worked on it in the past [22 May 21:11] <mdious> I think the release notes wiki/xml scripts are worth keeping around.... [22 May 21:12] <stickster> So our toolchain is basically bound up in the docs-common module in our CVS right now. [22 May 21:13] <Tsagadai> moving away from wiki is a good thing. publican is certainly easier for i18n [22 May 21:14] <stickster> Tsagadai: Well, I'm not sure we're looking at moving away from the wiki for things like the release notes [22 May 21:14] <stickster> In fact, we're looking at extending MediaWiki i18n [22 May 21:14] <stickster> (not Docs, but the Websites guys) [22 May 21:14] <Tsagadai> I like your idea of individual docs projects, stickster. guides are quite different from release notes [22 May 21:15] <asgeirf> publican is easier for translation from the aspect of checking out the whole project from VCS. the current toolchain integrates better with the current translation statistics/transifex system. The transifex developers are working on addressing the issue :) [22 May 21:15] <stickster> The release notes, as I see it, are sort of an animal on their own. [22 May 21:15] <mdious> opensuse wiki is fully localized - very hawt hawt hawt: http://www.opensuse.org/ [22 May 21:15] <stickster> mdious: Actually, if you look at their process -- it's all manual! [22 May 21:15] <stickster> We want to find a way to do MediaWiki in an i18n-friendly way [22 May 21:16] <ryanlerch> individual docs projects might be less daunting for new contributors... [22 May 21:16] <stickster> I think we might try to get OpenSuSE to put some muscle into it too [22 May 21:16] <stickster> ryanlerch: I agree. [22 May 21:16] <stickster> So each of these "book" (or sizable "article") projects could be a fedorahosted.org project. [22 May 21:17] <stickster> Then the *Fedora installable part* could be in the regular Fedora source code management, the same way any other package is. [22 May 21:18] <stickster> A spec file, BuildRequires: publican, etc., and it can be maintained, built, and shipped in Fedora. [22 May 21:18] <stickster> The "upstream" for that package would be at fedorahosted.org [22 May 21:18] <jfearn> publican can spit out spec and srpms based on the docbook [22 May 21:19] <mdious> ryanlerch: you're such a publican and graphics ninja, when will you be sitting next to me at work... [22 May 21:19] <stickster> We could check that out with the package maintainer folks [22 May 21:20] <stickster> I have a feeling that for consistency, anything we want to roll in the distro would need to have a specfile sitting in the Packages CVS [22 May 21:20] <stickster> (which hopefully will be replaced some day not too far off with a better SCM) [22 May 21:20] <jfearn> stickster, sure, but you create it from you book source and check it in to the CVS repo for building [22 May 21:21] <stickster> jfearn: Exactly what I was thinking [22 May 21:21] <stickster> And I suppose there's no harm in it being duplicated in the fedorahosted tree because other downstreams (like opensuse) could use it if desired. [22 May 21:21] <stickster> sorry, "it" == "spec file" [22 May 21:22] <stickster> The point being, we really need to decouple our toolchain from the docs themselves. [22 May 21:22] <jsmith> Exactly... [22 May 21:22] <stickster> What I think we need help with is going through the stuff in docs-common, characterizing it, and finding out where there are potential things we could RFE into publican [22 May 21:23] <stickster> If someone wants to spin off some other toolchain, the more the merrier [22 May 21:23] <mdious> andyfitz was saying http://scenari-platform.org/projects/scenari/en/pres/co/ this is good.... [22 May 21:23] <mdious> (http://scenari-platform.org/trac/scenari/wiki/SCENARIbuilder) [22 May 21:24] <jfearn> that scenari looks rockin for interactive stuff [22 May 21:25] <stickster> Is that open source? [22 May 21:25] <jfearn> stickster, yeah, gpl [22 May 21:25] * stickster having a hard time digging through the flashy site :-D [22 May 21:25] <jmtaylor> french only though atm? [22 May 21:26] <stickster> Um... holy crap [22 May 21:26] <mdious> jmtaylor: the error messages are a bit hard to decode... [22 May 21:26] <stickster> that's pretty wild [22 May 21:26] <jmtaylor> mdious: I bet :) [22 May 21:26] <andyfitz> the up to date content is in french [22 May 21:26] *** You disconnected [22 May 21:26] *** You connected [22 May 21:26] <mdious> I think if you want to try it, go for http://scenari-platform.org/projects/scenari/files/SCENARIchain/lin/latestStable/ ;) [22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> and their upstream format is not exactly docbook [22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> but their editor is what im keen on [22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> its xul [22 May 21:27] <stickster> Whoops [22 May 21:27] <jmtaylor> definately neat [22 May 21:27] <andyfitz> is a _good_ visual editor [22 May 21:27] <jfearn> I could imagine a whole website dedicated to interactive walk throughs based on that [22 May 21:28] <stickster> The interactive training bit seems pretty interesting to me [22 May 21:28] <stickster> All right, well back to the agenda here [22 May 21:29] <stickster> So some of the things that we might want to capture from the existing toolchain are... (anyone pitch in as desired) [22 May 21:29] <stickster> jfearn: How does publican handle OMF creation? [22 May 21:30] * stickster will continue asking dummy questions, be warned... [22 May 21:30] <jfearn> stickster, it has a stub atm, not well tested [22 May 21:31] <stickster> We create OMF's using just some XSLT IIRC [22 May 21:31] <jsmith> [22 May 21:31] * jsmith wishes Conglomerate were a bit more robust [22 May 21:32] * stickster hands jsmith a long, white beard. [22 May 21:32] <andyfitz> conglomerate is the biggest tease to every technical writer... hence my interest in the senari designer [22 May 21:32] <jsmith> OMF? [22 May 21:33] <jfearn> stickster, we switched to html-single for desktop docs, the OMF stuff would be easy to fix if you want xml on the gnome desktop [22 May 21:33] <jsmith> [22 May 21:33] * jsmith can't remember what OMF stands for [22 May 21:33] <stickster> Object Metadata Framework? [22 May 21:33] * stickster digs back into cobwebs of brain [22 May 21:33] <stickster> It's basically a metadata container about another data file [22 May 21:34] <stickster> In this case, scrollkeeper uses OMF to record documentation available on your system [22 May 21:34] <stickster> GNOME Help Viewer (yelp) scans these to present docs in the Help browser [22 May 21:34] <jsmith> Ah, gotcha [22 May 21:35] <jsmith> I knew I'd heard the acronym before [22 May 21:35] <stickster> jfearn: Something else that might be useful is the SVG idea for logos or such [22 May 21:35] <stickster> We have some bits in docs-common/images/ that we used for the watermarks [22 May 21:36] <stickster> A possible application might be SVG based diagrams that you want to include in a document but still have it translated [22 May 21:37] <stickster> There might be some hurdles there but it's a thought [22 May 21:37] <jfearn> stickster, publican handles per-brand and per-language image files [22 May 21:37] <andyfitz> not many, gnome doc utils makes translating svg easy [22 May 21:37] <stickster> jfearn: How are those image files created? [22 May 21:38] <andyfitz> inkscape [22 May 21:38] <jfearn> stickster, by andyfitz ;) [22 May 21:38] <stickster> haha [22 May 21:38] <stickster> So they're stored with a publican doc as .svg? [22 May 21:39] <jfearn> stickster, yeah [22 May 21:39] <stickster> awesome [22 May 21:39] * stickster continues asking more Publican 101 questions. [22 May 21:40] <stickster> jfearn: Is publican pretty much DocBook version-agnostic at this point? [22 May 21:40] <andyfitz> in a typical pulican workflow, content is docbook xml and images are svg xml.. both can be translated and rendered to different formats together or apart [22 May 21:40] <mdious> [22 May 21:40] * mdious glares at Red Hat campers [22 May 21:40] <stickster> andyfitz: Exactly what I was hoping for, cool. [22 May 21:40] <jfearn> stickster, yes, but it deafults to 4.5 [22 May 21:40] <stickster> Cool, so XInclude support is there. [22 May 21:41] <jfearn> stickster, oh yeah [22 May 21:42] <stickster> jsmith: What were some of the things you saw in the current F-Docs toolchain that we would want to capture? [22 May 21:45] <stickster> jfearn: Seems to me we could continue to build HTML copies, apply CSS, and publish as needed, just as you guys do I'm sure [22 May 21:45] <jfearn> stickster, you just set your barnd to fedora and you have the whole payload [22 May 21:45] <jfearn> brand [22 May 21:45] <stickster> Here's what I'm thinking... maybe we should try doing this with the documentation-guide as a test doc. [22 May 21:46] <stickster> I think the release notes are pretty much the oddball when it comes to our documentation modules, overall. [22 May 21:46] <stickster> Oh wait. [22 May 21:46] <stickster> What I just said makes absolutely no sense. [22 May 21:46] <stickster> Because the whole guide will essentially be wrong as soon as we start in on it! [22 May 21:47] <stickster> Maybe instead we could try something like the rpm guide. [22 May 21:47] <stickster> AHA! [22 May 21:47] <jfearn> stickster, I already did the rpm guide, so that is a good choice :P [22 May 21:47] <stickster> Well, phooey. [22 May 21:47] <stickster> Oh, you mean you tested on it? [22 May 21:47] * stickster thought for a minute it was already out there in fedorahosted land and he misse dit [22 May 21:48] <jfearn> stickster, I ported it to publican, but it doesn't have any translations so it's easy [22 May 21:48] <quaid> [22 May 21:48] * quaid stumbles in after beating his network into submission [22 May 21:48] <stickster> jfearn: So we should go to Phase II, which is moving that puppy to fedorahosted.org. [22 May 21:48] <quaid> sorry, 'twas unavoidable [22 May 21:48] <stickster> quaid: np, there's a big buffer waiting for you though :-D [22 May 21:49] <stickster> jfearn: we could put it in git! w00t [22 May 21:49] <stickster> Anyhow, once we have that set up, we could do a standard package review bug entry in bugzilla, get the package approved, and try this out. [22 May 21:49] <jfearn> stickster, lol, yeah we could [22 May 21:50] <stickster> The fedorahosted site would include instructions for how to download and contribute to the doc, with a few easy commands. [22 May 21:51] <stickster> Bingo, spread the docs work out to the community. [22 May 21:51] <jfearn> stickster, git might be a big step for some contributers [22 May 21:51] <stickster> Yeah, I was kinda joking ;-) [22 May 21:51] <stickster> SVN though. Please for the love of all that's holy, no CVS. [22 May 21:52] <jfearn> yeah, SVN is the ... comfortable choice [22 May 21:52] <mdious> jfearn: maybe you could open source the svn tutorial we have here :P [22 May 21:52] <mdious> and build it with publican [22 May 21:52] <stickster> I've been getting to know git, and if you're just doing work like you would in SVN, there's really no more of a bar there. [22 May 21:52] <stickster> But that's a sidebar... SVN is peachy for me. [22 May 21:53] <stickster> (weeds) [22 May 21:53] <stickster> OK, so what're our next actions then? [22 May 21:54] <quaid> [22 May 21:54] * quaid is all caught up on buffer [22 May 21:54] <stickster> 1. Get a fedorahosted project for rpm-guide (SVN preferably) [22 May 21:54] <stickster> 2. Enter the doc there [22 May 21:54] <stickster> & make sure it builds as needed [22 May 21:55] <jfearn> 0. find a _writer_ to own the package, since we want to test how it works for the target audience [22 May 21:55] <stickster> jfearn: Ah, thank you, that's right -- we no longer have that maintainer around these parts. [22 May 21:56] <quaid> maybe we need an active doc then [22 May 21:56] <quaid> software management guide, for example [22 May 21:56] <jfearn> does it have translations? [22 May 21:56] <stickster> I believe so [22 May 21:56] <jfearn> rock [22 May 21:57] <jfearn> brb [22 May 21:58] <quaid> also, don't we want a new fh.o project for docs-common? [22 May 21:58] <quaid> give it a new name and start tearing it apart [22 May 21:58] <quaid> or are you thinking we won't need a wrapper toolchain [22 May 21:58] <stickster> quaid: You know, I've been looking at it on and off for the past few hours [22 May 21:58] <quaid> and push RFEs into publican? [22 May 21:58] <stickster> quaid: And I think most of it, honestly? is "file 13" fodder. [22 May 21:59] <stickster> And that's tough to say, seeing how many hours of my life I spent figuring it out and then trying to keep it working over the past two+ years. [22 May 21:59] <stickster> But hey! It was a great learning experience. :-D [22 May 21:59] <quaid> oh, sure, everything from the garden [22 May 21:59] <quaid> turns into compost [22 May 21:59] <quaid> or [22 May 22:00] <mdious> quaid: wrapper toolchain? [22 May 22:00] <quaid> oh, wait, [22 May 22:00] <quaid> is this a mixed channel? [22 May 22:00] <quaid> [22 May 22:00] * quaid won't say what else the garden turns into then [22 May 22:00] <jfearn> it would probably be a good idea to spin publican-fedora in to a seperate project and hand that over to the fedora docs team [22 May 22:00] <quaid> -1 [22 May 22:00] <stickster> Yeah, sounds forky to me [22 May 22:00] <quaid> we can't maintain an upstream like that [22 May 22:01] <jfearn> OK, but that is the equiv of docs-common in publican [22 May 22:01] <stickster> Why wouldn't we want to have a joint upstream project like a freeIPA or whatever? [22 May 22:01] <stickster> This doesn't have to turn into, for example, "Dump bugs on jfearn, woohoo" [22 May 22:02] <jfearn> stickster, well publican-fedora is the fedora specifc branding of publican output [22 May 22:02] <quaid> right, we have resources to help with upstream [22 May 22:02] <quaid> that is the Fedora way, not to own the upsteam (per se), but to work there actively. [22 May 22:03] <stickster> Yeah, I think we should definitely provide resources to participate [22 May 22:04] <jfearn> no problem, it's just that a seperate docs-common package is basically what publican-fedora is :) [22 May 22:04] <stickster> Yeah [22 May 22:04] <stickster> I think what I'm saying is, I'm at a point where I want to "call it a day" with the old docs-common [22 May 22:04] <jfearn> [22 May 22:04] * jfearn fetches the shovel [22 May 22:04] <quaid> right O [22 May 22:05] <quaid> compost and ... other stuff [22 May 22:05] <stickster> I still think that relying on the kdesdk-utils is a much heavier footprint for this stuff, but meh. [22 May 22:05] <stickster> If someone *really* cares about it, let them port it or whatever. [22 May 22:05] <jfearn> stickster, there is a bug opened to split out the two binaries we use from that [22 May 22:06] <stickster> jfearn: Actually, that's done [22 May 22:06] <jfearn> stickster, yay! [22 May 22:06] <stickster> kdesdk-utils now exists, only contains those two [22 May 22:06] <stickster> That's why I was trying to rebuild publican here -- testing a specfile patch [22 May 22:06] <jfearn> stickster, it shouldn't need a pacth since it requires the files not a package [22 May 22:07] <stickster> jfearn: Did I forget to update? [22 May 22:07] <jfearn> my typing is extra lysdexic today :/ [22 May 22:07] <stickster> jfearn: Hm, in the F-9 branch it's still 'Requires: kdesdk' [22 May 22:07] <jfearn> stickster, ahh no, it's fixed in the new version in SVN [22 May 22:07] <stickster> Aha [22 May 22:08] <stickster> jfearn: So what I did was basically just to make that 'kdesdk-utils' and move on [22 May 22:08] <jfearn> fixed: upstream :P [22 May 22:08] <jfearn> stickster, yeah [22 May 22:09] <jfearn> although the build is busted in F9 for some reason :/ [22 May 22:09] <stickster> jfearn: That's what I was encountering, I'm pretty sure ;-) [22 May 22:09] <mdious> mmm, these cornflakes are super good today [22 May 22:10] * stickster throws ice cream at mdious [22 May 22:10] <jfearn> stickster, funny it built in dvel before the cvs update [22 May 22:10] <mdious> nom nom nom [22 May 22:10] <stickster> So quaid -- maybe that is a list topic then -- who will own the SMG in fedorahosted? [22 May 22:10] <stickster> jsmith did the new porting of content [22 May 22:11] <Tsagadai> mdious don't make me tell susan :D [22 May 22:11] <stickster> but he's awful busy these days. [22 May 22:11] <mdious> Tsagadai: just don't tell her I have banana on them too.... [22 May 22:12] <stickster> quaid: We need someone who's capable of recording the tasks of putting a doc into fedorahosted, I suppose -- that would be something we'd want to have in our process doc. [22 May 22:12] <jmtaylor> stickster: if jsmith is too busy I would be willing [22 May 22:12] <stickster> jmtaylor: ^^^ [22 May 22:13] <stickster> jmtaylor: So you'd approach this from the standpoint of, "I'm a new writer, how do I put a doc I've made (publican or otherwise) somewhere the community can work on it with me?" [22 May 22:13] <stickster> And as questions arise, we all help find the answers and you scribble them down for later use by every other guy who comes after :-D [22 May 22:14] <stickster> That becomes the basis for new content in the Documentation Guide. [22 May 22:14] <stickster> Get it? [22 May 22:14] <jmtaylor> stickster: since we are at ground zero, makes sense to me [22 May 22:14] <stickster> :-)
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