On Sun, 4 Feb 2024, 23:16 Sérgio Basto, <sergio@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 03:55 +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> Neal Gompa wrote:
> > It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to
> > someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm
> > disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin.
>
> I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in
> the
> particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In
> particular,
> I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind
> that
> he (like me) is not a native English speaker.
>
I haven't time to read all messages on this thread
My conclusion is, we have false arguments , that Xorg is old, that is
not maintained, that will give more work , even we got some lies on
some arguments and when we disassemble these arguments, they came up
with new ones, now is the tone . I know would be very fancy only have
wayland , modern etc etc . But the true is they have the work of
remove X11 and not the opposite.
Other thought it is obvious that KDE 6 will be a disaster, I remember
Kevin step up from leader of KDE SIG, after move from KDE 3 for 4 or 4
for 5 because the work was too much and we need have a life.
And the problem here is, we haven't an agreement , since the first day
of proposal many people said that was not acceptable and there opinions
were ignored and the proposal haven't changed one bit.
I think, I and Kevin so be added to the KDE SIG , please add me at
least (here is the request) .
Wouldn't it be better to create a new totally different named SIG?
Since bug reporting and crossover of people assuming it is official fedora plasma are the concerns, a totally independent named SIG and an independently named desktop should be considered serious options as that way the extra work can be avoided for the current KDE SIG.
That way you can even have a desktop with a different name so people will not think to file bug reports with plasma etc., avoiding problems with overloading the SIG with work.
I think is stupid and a waste of energy, IMO, do a kwin-x11 and plasma
-x11 , like I said KDE SIG had the work of remove X11 from the builds,
to enable kwin-x11 on Fedora Rawhide is just set %bcond to 1 on
kwin.spec [1] and plasma-workspace.spec [2], so I think that should be
enable.
Another way is build the entire package with X11 and conflict with the
original because will give us less work and we will have less doubts or
user use packages from KDE SIG or user use packages from KDE-X11 SIG
and can't use both. Like happens with ffmpeg where also Neal haven't
reach to an agreement with members of RPMFusion , so now we have ffmpeg
from RPMFUSion with one freeworld sub-package and we have fffmpeg-free
from Fedora and ffmpeg(s) conflicts each other .
It never happened to me such thing , except recently and all cases with
Neal directly involved, so I see Neal as the problem, was ImageMagick ,
was ffmpeg, was LSB , now KDE and one honest advice for Neal who
appears everywhere, try to do fewer things but be more focused
[1]
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kwin/blob/rawhide/f/kwin.spec#_2
[2]
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/plasma-workspace/blob/rawhide/f/plasma-workspace.spec#_2
> I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you
> are
> offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the
> content
> that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you
> why the
> content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts?
>
> > Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends,
> > and
> > the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted.
>
> We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG)
> unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels,
> a ban
> that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on
> IRC
> only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your
> Pagure
> issue trackers!) you accused me of.
>
> Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What
> I
> disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from
> the
> Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your
> Change
> Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change
> that
> Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to
> package
> it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or
> at
> least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it:
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/11
> Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly
> because
> you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting
> those
> packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about
> removing
> X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I
> promise
> something, I tend to deliver on it.
>
> > What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the
> > Fedora
> > Foundations, First and Features.
>
> I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major
> feature
> that users rely on align with "Features"?
>
> I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11
> despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the
> "Freedom" and
> "Friends" principles.
>
> > And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated
> > significant buzz in the community and media.
>
> Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the
> reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many
> people
> are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching
> distributions
> as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because
> I had
> already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11
> packages
> should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered
> researching).
> Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!",
> but I
> really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use
> X11.
> There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great.
>
> > I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as
> > well
> > as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :)
>
> And nobody is taking that away.
>
> Kevin Kofler
> --
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--
Sérgio M. B.
--
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