On Thu, 14 Sep 2023, 09:24 Michael J Gruber, <mjg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Am Mi., 13. Sept. 2023 um 23:29 Uhr schrieb Neal Gompa <ngompa13@xxxxxxxxx>:
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM Fabio Valentini <decathorpe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco <stevenfalco@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >
> > > A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal for KDE. Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution wide; i.e. affecting all desktops?
> > I assume the following is not meant literally:
> > """
> > For Fedora Linux, the
> > transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
> > X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
> > desktop mode.
> > """
> > I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
> > "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
> > but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
> > "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.
> Yes! Sorry if it's ambiguous, it's hard to write this to account for
> all the ways it can be interpreted. This is scoped to the KDE Plasma
> solution stack.
The proposal is clearly about KDE plasma and *its* sessions. Or else
"leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode" would
have to mean the end of all other desktops on Fedora ;-)
> Other desktops can and will make their own choices on the transition to Wayland.
Rightly so. Fewer and fewer will pull in X11, and that's a good change.
Now, if you (as in "they" - not you Neal, obviously) see "change" and
something Wayland has not worked in the past and you go ballistic
about it then for you (as in "they") that formulation might be
ambiguous. But if you take a breath or a step back or both then the
proposal is crystal clear. At the same time, there is no way around it
given upstream's directions.
Talking of upstream: I see some upstreams giving up on Wayland
support. Kicad was reported here, Scribus is another one. It's a
surprising time to do that, but probably indicates toolkit issues or
simply lack of people power. I hope we can help at least on the
toolkit side. That would be time well spent - invested in the future
of the platform.
The decision to not support Wayland in KiCad was taken because the graphics stacks didn't have the features we relied on to provide the UI/UX wanted by our users (mainly pointer warping and window positioning, but there maybe others I can't recall now), and whenever we found discussions about having those kind of things in upstream toolkits like GTK4/Wayland, it always seemed to be greeted with responses that that seemed to convey "don't do that, it is terrible UI/UX and you are idiots for wanting it. We [the upstream devs] know exactly what every application should do and so you can either do it our way or go away and shut up." So, we decided not to invest anymore time or energy in this and just said "we don't support Wayland." I don't know if the attitude of the upstream projects has changed or not, but this previous response has soured our taste for doing work on it.
Nobody will stop anyone from shipping a plasma-x11
package (and it's ridiculous to try and read that into the proposal)
or even a full stack plasma 5, but that will just drag out the
transition that is happening nonetheless.
Full disclosure: Writing this from F38/X11/i3 ;-)
F39 should be a good release to try the switch (Wayland/sway for me),
and in fact for some releases we have had dual session options now at
least for Gnome and KDE (X11/Wayland) so that one could try and switch
apps gradually. Reliance on WebRTC (and the switches i3/sway, st/foot
etc) made me chicken out so far, but now is the time!
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