> On Jul 7, 2023, at 7:09 AM, Michael Catanzaro <mcatanzaro@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 6 2023 at 09:27:47 PM +0200, Florian Weimer > <fweimer@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> What about packages which already collect metrics and report them >> somewhere (not necessarily to Red Hat)? Would these packages need to >> change under this proposal? If not, how do we explain this to our >> users? > > No, packages that are already collecting their own metrics separately > would not be affected. I’d almost prefer we work out a policy where anything of the sort is disabled by default, and with a distro-wide standard bcond to not even compile it in as an option. (No, I don’t quite know how that could be worded sensibly as a policy…. but it’s where I think I’d prefer to start from). Even well intentioned things can be problematic. Did you know that “lshw" does a DNS query? Not only that, it’s a DNS query not to where the distro points to, but somewhere out on the internet. By running “lshw” you’ve now told a DNS server how many machines / people you have running “lshw” within some amount of time. You’ve also now complicated the ability to go “I allow access to the packaging repositories for security updates, the one two or three endpoints my application needs to talk to, and if any of these machines EVER tries to do any other network activity, page people immediately as that can only mean something is wrong”. This *really* isn’t an unreasonable thing for people to do, in fact I really, really, REALLY want to make it easy for people to do this (and not start paging people just because someone diagnosing a problem typed “lshw” or something) For lshw specifically, this is fixed in c9s, Fedora, and upstream now has an option to build with this feature disabled: - https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/rpms/lshw/-/merge_requests/3 - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2098463 - https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/lshw/pull-request/1 - https://github.com/lyonel/lshw/pull/86 Now, this example is obviously not that extreme or anything. It’s arguably less information than what’s in your average `curl http://foo` <http://foo`/> request. But the burden we put on our users is to evaluate each of these is to evaluate for them, in their deployment and security context, if they are okay with a third party having that information, and that they understand exactly what is being done, and what *could* be done with it. It sounds like a lot of work. An example of this, the countme feature https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-coreos/counting/ / https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/infra/sysadmin_guide/dnf-counting/ / https://lwn.net/Articles/776327/ that lives as default on in Fedora (on my at-home personal Fedora machines too). I made a personal decision for my own machines, but when looking at it in the context of building the next (now current) version of Amazon Linux, I was faced with a choice: do we go through a process of independently working out what our customer thoughts would be on this feature, be prepared to set up our own infrastructure around it, how we’d communicate about it, as well as ensure all of that meets the security and privacy bars we want to uphold….. or do we just not enable it and spend that time on other things? We chose to spend the time on other things, as setting this up was not critical for us. But what was fantastic about this was that Fedora was very very very clear about the change, how it worked, the efforts gone to etc, and it was so easy to flip on/off and was really just in one place, and a place we would *have* to modify when we started building our own distro. _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
