On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 09:59:03AM +0100, Hunor Csomortáni wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 8:46 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> <zbyszek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 05:49:24AM +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> > > Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> > > > * #2951 Proposal: policy for resubmitting rejected proposals (zbyszek,
> > > > 17:07:47)
> > > > * AGREED: FESCo will make an effort to notify people when proposals
> > > > are resubmitted for voting without a formal change in the process
> > > > rules. A note will be added to FESCo_meeting_process. (+7,0,0)
> > > > (zbyszek, 17:18:25)
> > >
> > > So basically we are stuck with the status quo. Meaning that there is still
> > > nothing preventing an already rejected feature from being surprisingly
> > > reconsidered after the change deadline, and no guarantee that the "effort to
> > > notify people" is actually going to happen (especially in the future, as
> > > FESCo composition changes). Sad. I had got the impression that there were
> > > consensus in FESCo to improve the situation. Apparently, that was a false
> > > impression, unfortunately.
> >
> > Your assumption of bad faith from elected representatives of the community is
> > worrying. You manage to imply bad intentions not only from the current group,
> > but even from the future ones, yet unknown. Quite an achievement! I think that
> > you are under a false impression that repeating your argument ad infinitum is
> > useful for something.
>
> I agree that Kevin's wording has a negative tone, though I also agree
> with his point.
>
> "make an effort" is not a clear and explicit enough wording, and it
> leaves room for interpretation, which might lead to questionable
> situations in the future, even if everything is going to be done in
> good faith.
> Speaking about conflicts: as I already stated above, I also agree that
> Kevin's wording can be read as negative and not particularly
> constructive. But I also would like to call out that Zbyszek's use of
> language is outright unacceptable.
>
> No matter how I read it: it is an attack on the person, rather than a
> constructive argument. ("your assumption", "you manage", "you are
> under a false impression"). While I do understand the stress caused by
> these neverending discussions and arguments, I expect better from a
> member of FESCo, especially around "hot topics" like this.
Normally, I wouldn't phrase a letter this way. But Kevin will incessantly
repeat the same things after a decision is made that he disagrees with
or when there is some fact that he doesn't like. This nuisance does not
serve a communication mechanism, because the people at the receiving
end have already heard the exact same phrase from Kevin a dozen times,
but it does work as a way to grind people down. If you are just watching
the discussion from the side, you may see it just as "negative and not
particularly constructive", but I assure you it feels like more than that
after the fifth time.
I also stand by what I wrote above. Kevin's words that "there is still
nothing preventing an already rejected feature from being surprisingly
reconsidered after the change deadline" can only be true if we assume that
decision made by FESCo to "make an effort to notify people when proposals
are resubmitted for voting" has no effect. And for it to have no effect the
FESCo chair and other members would need to ignore the decision and
the documented process [1]. In short, only when bad faith is assumed.
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=FESCo_meeting_process&type=revision&diff=670619&oldid=670618
Zbyszek
P.S. And if you wonder why its phrased as "make an effort": unfortunately
we have no unambiguous mechanism to notify people. Not everybody has a
pagure account, we can't add people to issues, they need to self-subscribe,
and some people only participate on fedora-devel, others only on IRC, etc.
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