On Do, 28.10.21 01:48, Fedora Development ML (devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) wrote: > That said, you are probably right that this change proposal is not the worst > source of bloat we have ever encountered. There has been much worse. (Just > in terms of bloat added to each ELF binary by Fedora-specific settings, I > think both MiniDebugInfo and Annobin really ought to be dropped. > MiniDebugInfo is no useful replacement for full debuginfo and only wastes > space. Annobin has no benefit for the end user at all and should be only > enabled in private QA rebuilds.) But the benefit of this change proposal is > also very small. And I disagree with the concept that "we have done worse" > is a valid argument for doing something bad. I understand you are not working with backtraces/coredumps every day. But as someone who's at the upstream receiving end of bug reports of one major project I can tell you that MiniDebugInfo is literally the best thing since sliced bread: in systemd upstream the bug reports we get from Fedora are *ridiculously* more useful than bug reports from any other distro, since the default way how things are reported already carry backtraces that are quite useful. It's a complete mess with other distros, since we have to ask people to come back with proper backtraces with debuginfo installed, and only a subset of people is willing to bother with that. Bug reports from ArchLinux, Debian, Gentoo and so on are total crap by default compared to Fedora. So if you are going to dump shit on MiniDebugInfo like you are doing then what I hear is that you just have no clue with working and maintaining software upstream. And the package JSON ELF note stuff we are talking about here will improve things further for us because we then can sanely filter out stuff that is already fixed and irrelevant: people are really bad at providing us with the necessary info manually with matching things up properly, and get it wrong *all* *the* *time*, and that problem goes away entirely then. So, for one minute, try to see things from the perspective of people who actually have to work with the backtraces and coredumps that are generated on Fedora systems. Just because Mr. Kevin Kofler himself doesn't deal with coredumps/backtraces that's not a reason to make life harder for those people who do. (And I understand that mrqonki or what's it called is your holy grail of crash reporting, but I find it entirely uninteresting since it's in no way set up for doing system-level backtraces, run during early boot or anything like that. It might be OK for app crash dumps if it actually works, but we are not just building apps here, we are first and foremost *OS* builders, and something that can't handle system level stuff properl is just not relevant then. — That said, running back trace processors in-process or even just with user creds like mrqonki is doing it apparently is a really bad idea anyway: if an app has crashed, its memory is fucked then you don't want to run code inside it and you want to process its coredump tightly sandboxed with the least privs possible — something systemd-coredump does btw) Software maintainability *matters*. And yes, a few 100K on a distro install are a very cheap price to pay for this. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering, Berlin _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
