On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 7:38 AM Hans de Goede <hdegoede@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hi, > > On 7/7/21 1:08 PM, Florian Weimer wrote: > > * Neal Gompa: > > > >> Wait, why don't we have guile 3.0? > > > > We have a mandate from Fesco that the core toolchain must depend on > > Guile. Naturally that makes updates rather difficult. > > So I've gone and checked the Fesco issue where dropping guile > support from make + gdb was discussed: > > https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2558 > > And I must say that I find the argumentation for rejecting the > change very very weak. I would really expect Fesco to make better > motivated decisions then this one. > > I'm especially shocked about how Fesco is in essence mandating > a group of maintainers to spend time maintaining a feature > where they clearly have indicated they don't want to maintain > that feature. > > My being shocked here is not so much about the guile issue, > but about a IMHO much bigger issue underlying this decision: > > Since when does Fesco get to mandate on which features our > volunteer maintainers get to spend there time ? > > I understand there need to be rules and I can understand > Fesco denying approval for enabling / adding certain > features for a wide set of reasons, thus in essence blocking > volunteers from spending time on something because that > something is deemed undesirable for Fedora. > > But this is different here Fesco is telling a group of > maintainers that they must maintain a feature even though > they have indicated that they find the benefits of that > feature not worth the amount of time it costs to maintain > support for that feature. So in essence Fesco is telling > the maintainers that they MUST spend time maintaining this > even though they don't want this. > > IMHO this is just outrageous and goes way way beyond the > purview of Fesco. > > Now if dropping this feature would cause major breakage this > would a different story, But in the whole discussion about > this, at least as documented in the Fesco issue, no actual > users of this feature have been indentified and nothing will > break by disabling this as far is is known. So since there > is no known breakage caused by this, I end up circling back > to this basically telling Fesco that the make/gdb timers > MUST spend them on maintaining this even though they > don't want to (and have good reasons for not wanting to). > > Which again, is IHMO pretty outrageous really. > > Sorry Fesco, I know that you all do a lot of (hard) work > as Fesco members and do your best when making decisions > like this; and I don't doubt that your intentions where > well, but you made a big booboo here (IMHO). > > I urge Fesco to reconsider this and I suggest that we > (Fedora) take another serious look at implementing: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RemoveGuileFromToolchain > for Fedora 35. > If you want to be outraged at FESCo about this, then read the meeting log first[1]. My main point then is that *all* of the Change authors are upstream developers in the GNU Toolchain, meaning that they have to do maintenance effort around Guile support upstream anyway. If they want to remove a feature that makes Fedora the best place to use the GNU Toolchain, they should do it upstream first. I did not find their argumentation persuasive because they used arguments that should be applied upstream and Fedora is not a special case for any of those. I don't personally *care* much about Guile support beyond the fact I have a few private projects that use it in Makefiles, so it'd be annoying if it was gone. And I was comfortable with being overruled in my objections. I stated as much in the meeting even! The fact was, the GNU Toolchain developers: 1. Did not show up to that FESCo meeting to try to persuade the rest of the group to vote against me. 2. Did not consider either alternative I proposed (remove it upstream, split guile support out in some way) It was *barely* rejected by virtue of not reaching a majority vote to pass. If they want to propose it again, then be my guest. [1]: https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/fesco/fesco.2021-02-03-15.00.log.html -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
